Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Independence by Design podcast where we discuss what it means to be a business owner and ways to get unstuck from the day to day so we can design a business that gives us a life of independence.
How do we build a predictable revenue engine that lands revenue on our income statement every single month, month over month, at the growth rates that we need in order to hit our five year valuation target?
Well, the answer would be a Chief Revenue Officer, also known as the CRO. If you're not familiar with that term or who that person is and what they are responsible for, you're in the right spot. I've got my dear friend Kim Clark on the show today. She's going to be breaking down what a Chief Revenue Officer does and then what they should be responsible for and then how that leads into a predictable revenue engine. She's going to walk us through her nine modules and the assessment of what good looks like for a Chief Revenue officer. And don't worry if you're not capable of hiring someone because a CRO is expensive. We walk through at the end of the episode how to think about marketing and sales and how to unify marketing, sales and strategy to effectively just we need to have revenue land on the income statement every single month. So how do we integrate all these functions in inside of a predictable revenue engine? And Kim's going to be breaking that down for us. She's the perfect person to do so. I've really enjoyed collaborating with her over the last couple of years since she and her father Alan Beaulio ended up exiting ITR economics. That Kim was a driving force into helping grow itr and she was responsible for all of sales and all of marketing inside of the predictable revenue engine. So she's gonna be walking us through that. So by the end of this episode you're gonna know what good looks like and then how to actually measure and monitor the different KPIs and the different functions that will help you build out predictable revenue. I know you're gonna enjoy the podcast, so stay tuned. Here's my episode with Kim Clark. Okay, Kim, here we are. I'm going to be short winded on my intro. People know who you are.
Hot belly Billy and his review.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Okay, that's not today.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: So yeah, what we're going to try and accomplish in this hour long conversation is what does a Chief Revenue Officer do and what does good look like? As I had said prior to hitting Record, the podcast I did with Pat Hobby about what does a CFO do and what does good look like? Got a lot of attention. I think the finance function is more, you know, knowable. People, like, really understand kind of like what, like, the mechanics are. I mean, it's still obviously a major problem, but, like, I don't think it's as ubiquitous of, like, people having a chief revenue officer and how that differentiates between a CMO and a sales director.
So let's start with your definition of a CRO, how that fits into maybe people's current mental models, whether we need to do some reconciliation. Then we're going to unpack your thoughts on what that, what that person does.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: That sounds great. And I have my notes over here, so I'm going to just keep deferring to look over here. Off the top of my head, though, there's three main buckets that you and I have been discussing for a while now, though. The CRO is in charge of the business architect architecture.
They're in charge of the complete journey, Womb to tomb.
Have never heard of you all the way through. I am now an evangelist for your business and they are in charge of the systems and predictability of the machine that I just mentioned in the two previous categories.
So it's not campaigns, it's not lead magnets, it's not individual specific sales strategies where it says, I'm going to go back and target customers from six months ago. It is holistic. You are in charge of revenue, and therefore you have to make sure that these three segments of the business and where you fit in the market are all making sense and working together seamlessly.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: I. I think it's so it's going to be fun for people to listen to this because that's what you did at itr, and I have similar experiences. But when I met you, I was like, okay, this truly is. You're not just marketing. And I think even some of the podcasts that people might have listened to with you in the past, we're going to try and elevate above all of the other tact that we've talked about, which are still important. But when you and I started collaborating is I look at a plan. So if an owner has like, I want to go from 30 million in revenue to 60 million, I want to go from, call it two and a half million in normalized EBITDA to 6.
One of my clients has a similar path to that. It's like revenue. There are three buckets in the income statement revenue, gross margins and normalized ebitda.
Someone has to land revenue in that income statement. And if it's literally every month is a column. So it's 60 columns.
How's it going to land there? And all of the stuff that you're talking about nests inside of that.
So let's talk about like when you like chief Revenue officer, how does that compare to maybe certain mental models or incorrect assumptions or narratives people have about marketing, sales being siloed, CMOs, directors of sales compared to revenue, ARC or revenue architecture, womb tomb and systems. And maybe you can give some more explanations on that.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: A fundamental difference from what I just heard in the description you mentioned is this whole idea of silos. Those walls need to be knocked down. Sales, marketing, operations, financial department, it all needs to work in tandem, hand in hand, because they all impact one another.
So recently as a call you and I were on where somebody had brought up the production side of it, while if sales and marketing is crushing it, but production doesn't have capacity, then it cripples the business. X, Y and Z. Yep, the like the silos have to be no more. The entire business is the engine and it all has to be firing in the right order in order for it to hit the the income statements the way that you're saying.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: And the ownership operating system that I've been working on wraps all of that together and aligns it with the owner's goals of time, cash flow, wealth. And then the operations nests inside of that. And then inside of the operating system is predictable revenue, which is module 5. And like the the financials is where I've been bringing Pat on and pat and I've been collaborating on the three statement model and having the CFO own the financials, I've been talking about the coo. So my definition would be the Chief Operating officer who's responsible for margin and gross profit would need to be working. So all the cfo, the COO and the CRO are all working in tandem because it's one income statement pointed towards the cash flow and the valuation targets that the owner wants.
So within the revenue bucket that you're now I think we've given the context to the listeners saying okay, now we're in the revenue bucket.
You're saying that the chief Revenue officer is responsible for that revenue landing on that income statement. And inside the your three modules are the revenue or the business architecture. The revenue architecture, wounded tomb and systems. And I know you've got some questions that you would like to ask any CRO to say, okay, if you're a true CRO, you should be able to answer these questions. Do you want to start there or do you want to start maybe at a high level explanation of each one of those modules.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Maybe even just the high level for the first one, the business architecture, because it's really vague. What does that mean? I don't think anyone listening on this call is going to immediately intuitively know what we mean is included in there. And so by that I mean that your brand, your market and your target customer, those are what breaks that down. And so nested with inside those three buckets is everything else from your competitive advantage to your offers map mapped out to your ICP to your total addressable market to the psychology of the icp. All of all the things that people think are strategies are really just needed known facts that build and feed into this overall architecture of the business.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: Love it. And then so then that strategy and that revenue architecture then leads to then this womb to tomb, which I've really. I love how you said that. Different way of seeing custom journey. Right.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: You know, memorable.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: I just, I'm going to digress because you and I have to do this. So my friend and Jimmy Fritz who owns the wedding shop on it's a grand Ave in Minnesota and then there's babies on babies on Grand. So it's, it's it. He doesn't own it but it's wedding shop babies on Grand. And then there's a funeral.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: I was going to ask is there also a funeral?
[00:08:54] Speaker A: So literal customer journey.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: So yeah, it's perfect. All in one spot.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: You just hopefully you're not going all at once.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: So womb to tum customer journey is the second phase before systems. And so what is in the womb to tum customer journey that is important once people have their revenue architecture and their strategy.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: So a lot of what's in there is going to be your journey is mapped out. So you can't just have the idea in your head. It's you actually have it mapped out. What the very beginning.
An example I use a lot with clients is I like to think of the inflatable flaily flappy man that's outside of the car wash. That's like awareness.
Its only purpose is to catch your eye. So that way you become made aware that there is something over there. And so that's part of their journey that they have mapped out as a good tool to use. You need service level agreements between your sales and marketing team. That's also part of this womb to tomb. And it. Because again you need to break down the silos otherwise you're gonna end up with sales blaming marketing and marketing blaming sales and a CRO. If he or she favors sales, then marketing is gonna say, hey, but we're doing everything we can. We're pulling in qualified lead. If he or she favors marketing, sales is gonna say, hey, like we're not getting any qualified leads, we're executing. Well, there needs to be this service level agreement that we work in tandem with one another.
And.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: And that's tied to that journey that you're talking about.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Yep. Who's in charge of what. So that way you know who's responsible for what and how to grade who on what. So you know what metrics to grade your marketing team, what metrics to grade your sales team and you have an agreement for who oversees what part of that journey.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: So I want to quickly double click on this and I want, before we, I do want you to continue to wrap up all three of these phases at the high level and then we can go a little bit further in. But the customer journey I saw on our group call Monday, you had a, I thought was a more novel way of explaining the relationship between sales and marketing. Because I've had in my head like, hey, there's a customer journey, womb to tomb, and like, let's say it's four main KPIs that are like the biggest, highest level, which is like email, net, new meeting, discovery call, close, you know, refer, referral or something like that. But like, kind of like four big ones is like. And that will touch sales and marketing.
And you had said something along the lines of, because, you know, a sales funnel is like almost underneath the customer journey. Like the customer journey is like the first layer of this. But then sales and marketing have a relationship with each other within that journey and then sales and sales inside of that. But then also marketing, you say, could also be have the internal client of the, of the company. So I don't know, maybe you want to either put a pin in this so you can keep going to finish everything else off or.
I just thought it was a really enlightening way of describing it.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And we can double click on that for a second. So. And I actually try to avoid the word customer when I'm using journey because they're not a customer until they're actually buying something from you. So I like to put it as user journey because then it's just somebody that's entering my sphere of existence. Whether they ever decide to come closer than 3,000ft or not, they're just aware that I exist.
And that would just be like the beginning of a user journey. But I do see that the marketing team does support two types of customers. They support the internal customers and the external customers. Just as important as it is for them to have great conversion rates from social media to website traffic to forms filled to nurturing them into raising their hand and saying I want to now speak to a sales rep.
In addition to that, they also then support internal communication strategies, such as if you're looking to adjust something in your culture, or if you're looking to have employee surveys done, like they can help support, or if you have something new to announce in the company, they can help with that communication strategy because they're communication specialists.
So there are more responsibilities of the marketing department than there are say the sales staff because their job is to support, go after target, work with customers that will translate directly into revenue.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: And I think being aware just at the time constraints that a department has will just help everybody understand how it's all tied together. Because like I have people I know intimately where they're told that they need outbound KPIs, so they're told that the external customer or prospect matters more. But then they're forced to do all this internal stuff and they don't have the resources to do that stuff. And that's where the service level agreements are. Like, what are they doing? What are their KPIs, what people do you need for what? But then that marketing team would. Then the marketing, the sales team cohesively are working together inside of that user journey that has been identified. And from the boardroom perspective, the user journey, the way I look at it is we are building a ground up forecast, which I know you've got the revenue part for the forecasting in the third phase, but I want to know if there are four conversion points, how are we doing?
I don't care about all this other stuff from the boardroom, but I do want to know how are our conversions going through each of these. But inside of those four leading indicators that land the revenue, all of this stuff is going on.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: And it's funny that you say that from the board perspective. So it has been my experience that as long as we're hitting numbers, those types of questions aren't asked.
But it is the responsibility of the CRO for them to always have the answers. And so they do need to be checking and tracking all those critical points. So that way as they start to see some yellow flags or red flags approaching, say you mentioned four KPIs, if one of them starts to signal an issue, then it's their job to be aware of that first and foremost before anybody else has even noticed and started diving into the why so they can try to fix those, the squeaky wheel, if you will. So it never becomes a problem where all four are now signaling that we're into an issue.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. I would agree with that. And I think the important thing that you said is we don't want to have that conversation at all in that board meeting.
But what we're looking for is good explanations for what's going on from the people that own the buckets. Exactly. If the per. You know, most of my clients are the CEO and on the board and we've been working on this boardroom playbook. So they're playing both. Right. So it's kind of if, if there is a CEO that's not the owner, that CEO is responsible from taking the KPIs from the CRO, the COO and the CFO. But my client is usually both. So then it's kind of this quasi little bit of bleed into some of the overseeing of the, of the numbers in a way that maybe a traditional board wouldn't. But in that situation where if you think about it, the board or the CEO is asking if, for example, there was something off, all we're looking for is good reasoning.
Things happen.
And I think that's when after you get done explaining the three phases and the questions that you're going to present to the listeners, like, hey, here are the questions that a CRO should answer.
We're looking for those good answers to say, okay, those things are off. But, but I think it's important as we're going through this right now is understand the concepts.
So there's the business architecture. See if I can reground us Business architecture for the revenue, brand, market and consumer and customer womb to tomb, which is the user journey, that's the whole overarching journey. And then sales and marketing are inside of that user journey, working together with an sla. Okay, I think I got us back to square one.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: You did, you did a great job. So after that we're going to dive down into guardrails then on cost of acquisition.
So you've got your womb to tomb, you've got your sales and marketing team with broken down silos, clear agreement between them. And now you need guardrails put into place for cost of acquisition based upon.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: And we're still in the womb of tomb.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: So, okay, so cost of acquisition, you did a great job this week explaining what you think is in it. So most People might be going, it's how much I spend on ads or it's just my commissions. So what is your definition of client acquisition cost? And why did you use the word guardrails?
[00:17:35] Speaker B: So the cost side, I have a list over here, marketing spend, so that your ads, your agencies, your tools, sales composition, compensation. So that's your base plus commission, which a lot of people don't think to add that into it, but you should. Your sales development and any business development cost, marketing operations, sales, operation cost, and then any onboarding costs required to close.
Onboarding costs would be like if I needed to send you out a packet in order for you to fill out and send back to me. That's just the first thing that pops in my head. So that would be an onboarding cost, that printing and shipping of said packet.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: What is not included is internal labor, fixed costs, and sales management time.
So it is a bigger bucket. And oh, my goodness, I heard a ridiculous thing from.
And somebody I won't mention, but they told me I had asked the question, in your perspective, what is good marketing roi?
And this is a marketing person I was speaking to. And the answer that I got in return was, well, probably about anywhere from like 30 to 40% of total revenue.
I said, wait a second, are we talking about the same thing? And he. And he goes, well, that's how much a business should budget towards marketing. And as long as you're staying below 30 to 40% of total revenue, then you know that you're doing a good job with your marketing efforts. And I just. I'll stop the conversation there because that person working that was my very next phone call.
I was like, we gotta talk.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: Shut off the credit card problem.
Oh, that's not even like, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: Guardrails are important because you need to determine your gross profit, like what you want.
And you need to take that into account when you're building out your sales reps, quotas, and you're looking at your cost of acquisition. So that way you can make sure that it doesn't creep up too high and start cutting into your profitability of a business.
And your CRO is in charge of all of that. Watching that, tracking that, developing it, building it, teaching the staff it, all of.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: It, after they helped lead the strategy and the revenue architecture. And what I thought when I figured this out, Kim, it was just like, oh, my God, like, it becomes one of those objective things that we're like, we don't have to argue about this anymore. Because a couple comments. The client acquisition cost list of Things that you mentioned.
It doesn't mean that you're shuffling around your GL codes in your income statement. I just want to get really into the weeds for people where you can because you have, you know, I mean SGNA or sales General Administrative and overhead is its own bucket. Right? But what we're doing is you, if you have your trailing 12 months and you have your income statement organized the right way, you can pull out these costs to then isolate how much is that expense in relationship to my gross profit.
And so like my old business, it was 20% of gross profit can be client acquisition cost. And then with that guardrail, the way I then map it to, then the user journey is like okay, you know each size company has a different budget based on their growth perspective, right? So you say okay, well now I know I have 20% of this dollar amount. Is it best for salespeople? Is it best for Google paid per click? Is it best for trade shows? Maybe we do billboards or you know what I do like those flappy things out in front of car wash.
But that's, it just helps me think about it in a way that's practical and it dismantles all these silos and just, I don't know, I just love it 100%.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: And actually a way that I had worded it when we were working on the other day is putting these, putting all this into practice. So you have your womb to tune journey documented, understood, clearly defined, your KPIs built out. Within that you have service level agreements between your sales staff and your marketing staff where they are working hand in hand doing a three legged race together throughout the user journey. Underneath that you have these cost of acquisition guardrails put into place. This structure makes it so that there is complete alignment across sales, marketing and finance.
There is no room for misalignment when you have these things properly put into place.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: I love it so much because when we get to phase three for my ownership operating system, the layer above this, the compensation plans that I love helping design for the CRO, the COO and the CFO are tied to revenue, gross margins and normalized EBITDA and cash. We can interconnect very objective KPIs on an annual basis. So you say okay, well CRO is responsible for revenue, budget as well as the client acquisition costs. But then we interconnect. So that way the COO and the cfo. I don't know, I don't even know if I've gone down through this rabbit hole with you. But we actually com commission the cfo, I should say bonus. It's not a commission but a bonus. The CFO on revenue, a portion of their annual bonus to revenue and gross margins and then a portion of the CRO to gross margins and to normalize ebitda.
So like effectively each one of these three people are. It's like it's the six legged race.
And so we take the big picture of the income statement and then we double click where then all of these KPIs that you're talking about for the CRO, that's what they would be comped on. But then we're actually having an annual bonus plan for the CRO and the COO tied to the CRO hitting their goals.
So but like this, you're laying the groundwork. So I, which I like how you said it on Monday too.
Then we get to systems. So we have the revenue architecture for brand, market and customer. We then go womb to tomb for the user journey with sales and marketing SLAs and then client acquisition costs for the guardrails for the capital.
Now we can start building the systems and the governance. And you had said something along the lines of you have to do that in that order almost otherwise what happens if you don't? And then maybe describe what the what you mean by systems.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: So systems is multifaceted first being some form of a CRM system for automations efficiencies effectiveness. Modern day technology is awesome.
Please start using it. If you're still managing your quotes in Excel, you don't need to. There's free things out there.
So it's just there. So your tech stack I guess is what I should summarize it up to is a tech stack and making sure that your tech stack is in line with where it should be based upon your size of business kind of business and your annual revenues. Obviously you don't need a high end car if you're not making high end car type wages type of a deal. But there is plenty of technologies out there for every stage from a, a new startup business all the way through 2050 million plus type businesses. So your tech stack forecasting. So we've talked about that. Another, another conversations that we've had together where you have your bottoms up forecasting and your top down forecasting. Your CRO should be putting those together with a high degree of reliability and there's techniques and tactics to do that. And if they don't know how to do that they should learn how to or find somebody that knows how to because they should be able to confidently come to you, Ryan, Mr. Owner. And I say, here's my outlook for 2027. And you asked me, Kim, how confident are you in it? And I said, I'm pretty damn confident because I spent the time necessary to be confident in these numbers that I am handing to you. So that's a part of the systems and governance. And then a rhythm weekly, monthly, quarterly rhythm needs to be established across all teams supported by your systems. So that way it allows for just strong communication and traction to be had as time goes on.
That's how I break them down. Tech stack forecasting rhythm.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: It's awesome. And for the listeners, what we're, what Kim and I are working on is trying to, we're going to be working on an advanced course that goes inside of the owner's academy. Well, you'll have your own predictable revenue roadmap, your own predictable revenue assessment, and we'll build. I'm just pumped for the low level of work that you've been putting onto this. I'm trying to think of where to go here because I, I, I loved the questions that you had. We could go that direction because that kind of shows what good looks like. But someone needs to know these answers and maybe we can kind of bounce back and forth if you people don't know what they are. Cause I think we got some good data points and feedback this week of like, okay, there are concepts that not everybody understands. So maybe we ask the question, say what it is, and then maybe down the road and the conversation came of, if there's not a budget or if there's not someone that manages this spot, what do we do as an alternative to get to the point where we have someone that ultimately owns this?
I think we can say that towards the end because a good point.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Because it's not everybody. Right. I mean, even let me digress real quick, because I have a $30 million company. It's like, well, we can't afford a $300,000 CRO put in that title. And now you're in the three bills. It's like, okay, like, so then I think a conversation over fractional people or like, how does the owner, CEO manage this if they can't have someone that's perfectly overseeing all this. But before we go there, I think it would be in great service to explain these components have to be answered no matter what, no matter what size company, million dollar company, $100 million company. And then that'll give us context to figure out who should be doing this stuff. What do you think about that approach?
[00:27:56] Speaker B: I like it. And I have the list of questions that we went over on Monday. And then I also have a leadership checklist that. That breaks it down by each section that we just covered. So I think that would be good for us to go through each of those. So from a marketing perspective, whoever's in charge of your marketing, these should be extremely basic questions for them to be able to answer off the top of their head. What is our icp, which stands for ideal customer profile. What is our.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: Can I pause here for a second? Sorry. So you just. Because maybe there's a break right off of if someone's responsible for your marketing. Well, we don't know who's responsible for this stuff yet because we haven't gotten there.
Maybe we organized and I don't know if you had these questions organized inside of your three phases.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: They do.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: So let's, let's. Let's call the components first, because then I want to end this conversation, which we only do have 40 minutes, believe it or not, everybody. She's got a heart cut off. We can then end with, how do we organize these puzzle pieces so that way we get that outcome. But I think the point I'm trying to make is the components have to be done and are necessary regardless of how big you are. Yeah, so that's why I kind of got distracted right. When you said marketing. But so questions, let's organize them in the. The kind of the different buckets.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: All right, first bucket for the revenue architecture.
Like the leader can ar. Articulate the ideal customer profile and the winning position without the owner in the room to help support and clarify the answer.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: All right, now what is that?
[00:29:34] Speaker B: So that is being able to state who your ideal customer profile is. So clicking into that, breaking that down, that's a lot of people call it, say, like your buyer Persona. So you think target audience, you think company size, industry demographics, male, female, age, whatever, the K location, all of that. But it's breaking it down even further into psychographics from there. Motivators, demotivators, anxieties, bot purchasing behaviors.
All of that is wrapped up in the simple acronym icp.
[00:30:10] Speaker A: Love it. And what's your definition of winning position?
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Winning position is your place in the market that makes you unique and is going to make people choose you every day and twice on the day that ends in Y over your competitor.
And if you don't know what that is, then you can't even progress further into the rest of everything that we have going on. You have to Know what your winning position is in the market? You can even think of it in terms of like boxing. If I'm going to go into the ring, but I know that I'm not as big as the opponent that I'm going up against, I need to have some sort of trick up my sleeve. Whether it's I duck really well or whatever the case may be like, it is my winning position going against my opponent.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: I float like a butterfly.
[00:30:55] Speaker B: Oh, that was funny.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: I'm glad I made you next gift.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: We'll work with AI on that one. So that's how I define wedding position is what unique thing do you have that's going to beat out your competition?
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Love it. All right, so that is first bucket of the revenue architecture and then we're still inside of that bucket for the next question.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Your total addressable market is quantified and your subtotal addressable markets are prioritized.
So oftentimes you'll hear people say, well, my audience is including X, Y and Z and there's like 15 different types of Personas. Well, you want.
Your ideal is only one. It's kind of like when my daughter says, I have three best friends. I'm like, you can't have three best because best is a superlative.
You have three very great friends. So just like icp, you have one ideal customer. What is that? Total addressable market. And then sure, you might have 14 more customers that would like to potentially buy from you because you sync up in 8 out of 10 areas or whatever the case may be, but prioritize those from 8 out of 10, 7 out of 10, 5 out of 10, and so forth.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: And if you were really doing next level, you would then map those onto the industry business cycles. Yes, we won't get there yet. Okay, got it.
ICP winning position and then total addressable market and quantified sub markets. Then what?
[00:32:28] Speaker B: From there it's your offers are mapped to everything that we just talked about.
So you're going to have overall, in general, your business has this ideal customer profile, but maybe you have three services over here that are most ideal for your third down customer profile that you put forward. So you want to be able to map your solutions to the competitor or to the customer profiles and then taking the next step further back to the winning position have documented quantitative competitive advantages for each of those scenarios. So I have mapped my services along with my ideal customer matrix and I have quantitative why me? I'm going to duck and knock you out sentences for each example on that.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: Metric duck and knock you out. Wounded Tomb. I mean, you've been. You have been staring at the scene.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: It was a dead chicken's fault.
[00:33:28] Speaker A: This is awesome.
Okay, so we got the three dead chicken. Well, that's a whole. We don't have time for the story. But there's a story there.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: Everybody just message Ryan and ask him.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: So inside the revenue architecture phase, the CRO should be able to articulate all of these answers to the CEO/owner on.
[00:33:54] Speaker B: The top of their head. And it does change.
This is not something you set it and forget it. This is every year. Review, research, reanalyze, make sure you're still in the right. Like you might be on the Matrix, like slightly top right. And then all of a sudden you've calibrated slowly to the left. And I need to like recalibrate your.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: Matrix again, especially as the world changes and everything like that. Yeah, exactly.
Awesome. All right, so we're on to the second phase of the Wounded Tomb.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Yeah, Wounded Tomb. Document that journey.
What are those steps look like? So people can say, sure, I know what our user journey is. Great. Is it documented somewhere? Because I guarantee as you go through that exercise, things are going to pop out at you. And then make sure that you have criteria between each of the key, like, junctures along the journey so you know what your conversion rates are at the key junctures throughout the journey.
[00:34:57] Speaker A: So like, what leads to the first, like, it's.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: They all go back to leads to.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: The email subscribers and it's all the different subsetting, like things that I really don't want to talk about, but it's like landing pages or ads around or whatever it is. And then it's phone calls and all that kind of stuff.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Yep. Everything leads to something else. And what does that domino trail look like? And then how much would your conversion rate between the dominoes? Yep, that would be your first thing. The second one is having those service level agreements between your sales and marketing team.
Are they defined and enforced? Because they should be.
It's not just. Yeah, they work really great together.
They like each other. They go out for beers on Fridays. Nope. Let's have some really clear KPIs and structure around what that looks like.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: Hilarious story I just got to tell. So my wife is in marketing.
They're a sales led organization. And I don't think this is very clear.
And someone was like, hey, we. We can for sure give you guys product binders.
No discussion. Next thing you know, two months of my wife's time is finding printers and getting a 500 page product binder. That's 300 of these.
I know nowhere in the plan that, that you're not in the budget. It just, it's just like, and I hear the story and it's like, it makes sense why they did it, by the way. So I'm not, I'm not knocking why they did it, but it was just like, just whiplash left and right. So then yeah, it's, that would be a great use case of an sr.
[00:36:35] Speaker B: It would. And also just what pops in my head there, Ryan, is below the CRO level. If you're big enough company or if you're not and they're actually overseeing more management functionalities between like more or your coo, this could fall under operations is having systems in place to handle the communication and the demands and the needs and the priorities of each group because they will occasionally be different. So I'll give you an example. I set up a ticketing system at my previous company where sales had to submit requests to marketing for sales enablement. Things like the product one pagers or I want a new PowerPoint on this or X, Y and Z. And I actually had a process where I, and I communicated this to the same sales team. And this is what the marketing team followed. We don't touch it for seven days. We don't look at your request, we don't touch it. And if in seven days you still feel the same sense of urgency when you first submitted the request, ping me and let me know and then I'll move it into queue. Otherwise, let me know what the new priority. Because sales, Sales is a roller coaster, right? You ride the highs, you ride the lows. And that's never a good idea when you're in sales. So they're like, I need this to do my job. And then marketing jumps to through hoops to try to get it done. And so having the right service level agreements where our agreement was, submit it to us seven days later, we'll follow up with you to see if you still need it. So it's even just little nuances like that.
[00:37:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I like. I love it.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: Yeah, Cool. So and then the third and last one of the wounded tomb, your guardrails.
[00:38:07] Speaker B: Are your cost of acquisition figures known.
Are the guardrails set, tracked and tied to the business's gross profit targets?
[00:38:25] Speaker A: Love it so much.
All right, so we're moving on to then the third one. So just while you're pulling up your. So it's revenue architecture, the first phase, ICP and winning Position, the total addressable market, quantified submarkets priorities. And then the third is, offers are mapped to ICP and winning position.
And then the second phase wounded to tomb. Documented customer journey criteria between KPIs injunctions, fifth milestone to the second, and that is the SLAs between sales and marketing and then the client acquisition costs and guardrails. So now we're back to the third phase, which is now what do you got that calls systems or tech stack or what are you calling it?
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Well, the topic overall is systems governance and forecasting, so it's more of a mouthful than the other two.
I'll have to come up with something fun. So it's just as fun as womb to tomb.
Maybe some sort of like systems.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: I mean those are all systems, it's all supporting functions to. I mean, that's where like, as I look at what you're. It's the momentum that we're all building.
It's systems that support.
Oh yeah.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: But okay, regardless, I. I'm just gonna play with that. I'm gonna come up with a fun acronym for it. But anyway, so the first one is a tech stack.
[00:39:39] Speaker A: Well, should they know? Like, so like, if it's the CRO who should know, because like you say, they're. They're capable of ripping off all these thoughts and knowledge off the top of their head. What would they have to know about the tech stack? Like how it's working, where the data's at. I mean, like, how would you position that?
[00:39:55] Speaker B: They have the reporting they need to answer any question coming from the owner at any given moment.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Their team members are highly efficient, AKA not duplicate data entry.
Lots of admin work and steps.
Lots of waste in the process.
And the CRO should also know that the data can be trusted. So there's a level of hygiene in the systems where the information coming out of it is trustworthy.
[00:40:44] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:40:45] Speaker B: I think those are the things that's a sore subject.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: I think probably for quite a few people.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: It takes a lot of work. Again, I'll just give quick props to the previous company we had used HubSpot, and we actually got an email. It was either email or a phone call from a HubSpot rep saying that we had the cleanest HubSpot system out of all of their clients.
[00:41:09] Speaker A: Oh, shit.
[00:41:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:11] Speaker A: Whoa. That's a big deal.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. But we put work into it every week, every month. We made sure that the data was clean, so that.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Okay, I just need to then even zoom out one layer and Go.
So the team that I am really enjoying with working with is you and then Pat. Because, like, if that's the case on HubSpot, the data point where I know Pat knows his shit is there was one point where he was going to sell their company to a large multinational.
And the person looked at Pat and says, you have a weird way of negotiating. He goes, yeah, how's that? He goes, you don't.
Because every single number was right.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: It was just like.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: It's like he just. It was back to like, okay, everything's correct. So what are we here to talk about?
[00:42:00] Speaker B: There is no negotiation.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: Yeah. We know what we have here, and that's the point that I wanted to make, is what good looks like is what we're striving for. And knowing that in mind that I. In the clock here, we got a little over 25 minutes, regardless of the size of the company. We just got to figure out how do we get there and how do we make incremental steps. You can't do it all at once, so this isn't helpful. All right, so then the eighth module and eighth question bucket.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: So we did the tech stack, and then the next would be forecast, and the next is your we, your rhythm.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: So can what's what before the ribbon, what's the forecast? So this is a question.
What is the CRO doing?
[00:42:45] Speaker B: To have a good forecast, they should have a reliable bookings forecast and know how that translates into a revenue forecast and have that reliable revenue forecast for the owner that they can explain every nuance in detail, where every number came and the rationale and reasoning behind every single number that's in there. It's not a. Well, that's what we did last year, so we figured we were going to do it this year. There needs to be a methodical, grounded in data, algorithms, and all the things to come up with the right number. And you can do that through all the leading indicators because you have to give the womb to tomb completely.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: You've done everything up until this point to actually make that a possibility.
[00:43:32] Speaker B: Exactly. Yep.
[00:43:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
The revenue buildup, forecasting. So, you know, it was probably three months ago you and I did the budgeting series. Little miniseries. Revenue is 50% of the effort.
Because, you know, in the board meeting I was in last week, it's like everything falls into place.
Like, once we believe the certain numbers, well, we gotta hit certain margins. I mean, we can't just make up our margins completely, but it's like small tweaks, and then we gotta hit our normalized EBITDA in our cash position because it becomes a constraint based off of revenue build. So all this stuff makes even the annual budgeting so much easier.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: Yep, yep, 100%. I would not imagine wanting to put a budget into place without it.
I know many people do.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah, don't recommend it.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: Do the same thing with my personal finances.
[00:44:27] Speaker A: We're going to do that.
So says my butt.
Weekly, monthly and quarterly, like walk me through your meetings like back into your old company. And I know you've ran a bunch of these meetings. I've been a part of some as well.
What did your meetings look like?
[00:44:46] Speaker B: So thinking to a CRO level, not sales manager, not like in the weeds personnel, a CRO level, a weekly is going to be more. I'm going to use an EOS term like an L10 where you issue, process, you review on track, off track for goals and you're thinking of broader spectrum type thinking for the business Monthly you're doing a deeper dive into the specific analytics of your sales and your marketing to identify what's working well and what's not working well. Where do we miss? Where did we exceed all of that? And then quarterly you're looking at a broader trend.
So that way you can see how this quarter compared to last year's at this time and start to gauge a reasonable understanding of where you can expect like how your overall year is going because it takes three months to make a trend. And so using your rates of change and stuff like that, you can clearly see that trend of where, where you're headed.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Do you see like that CRO, if someone has someone truly responsible for all this stuff, having like a weekly monthly and quarterly for them and their lower level, but also them and their peers. So like when I think about them and their lower level, it would be like sales manager, marketing director, that kind of stuff to push down these initiatives. But then at the weekly L10 with the COO and then the CFO talking about inter departmental functional constraints with each other and then like you know, the CEO, you know, senior leadership team for like the quarterly, it's almost like you're having two in parallel, Right?
[00:46:27] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah, I'm glad that you pointed that out because it isn't just peers or just up, it has to be with your lieutenants that work side by side with you out on the field.
[00:46:38] Speaker A: So one thing that I like, as we look at the next 20 minutes and we don't even have to go to the whole 20 minutes, if we, if we think we've covered a lot of Ground. I think this is fantastic and I know we're going to both use this transcription to also help us with the assessment as you probably thinking that as we were doing this has been very beneficial for everybody.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: So.
[00:46:58] Speaker A: It'S I, maybe I'll frame it up with what I the challenges I've seen on the three executive level. So at the risk of being too long winded, I just still want to set the context, Kim, because it's so important, because I really want to hear your answer on how you think that the Jigsaw puzzle could work for resources to help with this and then how does it progress over time? So I think that's probably the question. Let me give you some context of how I'm coming at it. So the question is, given that people could are going to be at a range of sizes that are listening to this, we can't just jump straight to the hey, I've got a CRO. But everything you mentioned can't go ignored and or it has to be prioritized, you know, so like yes, certain things might have to be put to the wayside, but there is an order to do these things, which is why you and I are going to work on the roadmap of like the order to do these things. And kind of thinking about Darren, who's like, okay, that was a lot, Kim.
So that's where we want to get to. But the context that I'm coming at this from, Kim, is as I look at the three functions of a company.
Revenue, gross margins, and normalized EBITDA in cash. So finance, it's the CRO, the coo, and then the cfo. And then the CEO sits on top responsible for getting all three of those people to do their jobs. So it's like in Joel Tramell, I'll put the podcast link in there, the Chief Executive Operating system. He's got a bunch of great stuff that I pull on about how to think about a CEO. CEO should have no tasks. They're moving the company, which is the income statement, to ownership's goals through these three people.
And then those three people are responsible for their three big buckets. We interconnect them with their compensation.
The income statement is tied to the cash flow and the valuation goals of ownership. That is how a company works. Regardless of how big it is. You're a million dollars. You still have revenue, gross, profit and normalized ebitda. You still have ownership goals.
The thing that I'm trying to help with and what I think you and I are both trying to accomplish is use the constraints of cash flow, time and wealth to manage the priorities. To say we're going to have to do certain things at certain times because we can't do it all at once. And that's where I think, you know, systems like eos or scaling up, they don't look at the constraints using the ownership goals. We have to point all of the stuff in a direction using the constraints. So like with the cfo, it's like, okay, crap, I don't have enough money for $300,000 CFO. So I still would like the forecast. I still would like. I mean, you still go through and the owner who is dealing with the chaos still wants all this stuff.
It's like, how do I figure out what to do in what order?
And the challenge is that the owner, CEO, the owner operator has to understand this stuff to make sure that they use service providers and, or their doers like a controller or marketing director or market, you know, sales manager, because otherwise the whole picture is not getting taken into account. And that's where everything, all the, the wheels wobble off. So it's this weird dynamic and dance. You're going, okay, if the owner knows this stuff and understands what we just talked about and can acknowledge it, then they can at least manage a sales director or, you know, or an agency to the outcomes where they're not pissing away 30% of revenue on ads.
Am I making some sense here where like understanding the whole outcome is the owner operator's job, but then going, okay, if I'm one, if I'm 5 million or 30 million, like one of my clients still is a larger company and they're like, I'm just hiring a sales director or VP of sales, not a CRO right now.
But that doesn't mean we, we don't do these things.
[00:50:46] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: What are your thoughts about how to approach the resources, the size, the priorities?
[00:50:53] Speaker B: I have lots of thoughts. I'm trying to put them in an order of operations that make sense versus just as they're jumping into my brain, I'm back to cfo, coo, CRO, and please tell me, because I could just be biased, but in my mind, very simply put, you don't like, you need to pull in revenue enough to have to worry about how to use your financial strategically and running your business and having a, like the, the statement cash flow and everything else.
So the revenue has to come first.
And if you're smaller and you're focusing on bringing in more revenue, you don't really need a coo. To run operations until you're a larger entity.
And so in my mind. But I don't think it has to be a CRO either. I think it ha. I mean, the title, my. My last title when I lived in the corporate world was Vice President, so it wasn't even CRO at that point. But I was definitely doing all of this and more in that role. So I think it's less so much a title and it's more so skills that's important and teachability and capability.
And to your point, the knowledge of the owner. So if the owner is not strong in one of these buckets, then they need to, in one way or another, find somebody else who is stronger in it or can learn it very quickly. Whether that's. You take your current bookkeeping accountant that you have and you spool him or her up to a controller role, and then you work to spool him or her up to a higher strategy role. Like it's. You work within the means that you have. But always looking to strengthen, in my mind, revenue, finances and operations. Yeah, it's kind of the order that goes in my brain.
[00:52:46] Speaker A: I love it. And I'll give two kind of spectrum or responses to that. I got on a call with a guy yesterday, he was a prospect for the coaching program.
And my response is, you need to sell more shit. You don't need me.
You need more revenue. Like you don't have enough. Because my program is going to show you how much more money you need to spend.
It's not going to. You need more money. And so revenue and looking at it the way that you are and the way that you've laid it out, I think is very helpful. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs and owner operators started in.
I mean, you got to sell your stuff, right? So whether they're a born salesperson or they're an architecture who has to go get clients, I mean, there's probably a lot more outbound, you know, nature of the founder that's driving revenue.
And there's a lot of good ways to continue to invest in that with the playbook that you've laid out.
The other end of the spectrum, which I think is fascinating and I'm curious, I want your reaction to this is a lot of the people that I'm working with currently who get to a certain size, call it like the 20, 30, $40 million, they're in this trap because cash flow, specifically on the geeky side, it's working capital, inventory receivables, debt, taxes, owner's distributions are so muddled up that they're like, I can't see how I can make more than I'm half a million. Like, it's like, let's say the owner's finally making a half million bucks as the CEO and you're like, well, if I grow more, I have less money.
So then there's this weird paradox of like, okay, like more sales is actually not the answer because I need to figure out like back to then, like, what I think would be so, like is so powerful. We have a three statement model where we can actually see the constraints of working capital and cash. Then it's like, now what we're going to do is you're going to reinvest only this much money. It's like the sniper approach. Like, okay, now I can make a half a million bucks if we grow this much more. We can negotiate receivables, we can negotiate inventory deals. And then Kim, as the CRO, I want to take 400 grand and literally sniper it into one of these parts of that KPI user journey to get the highest return.
So then you're using those guardrails because the cash flow becomes a limiting factor. And that's why with Pat and with the model and the training program, if we can get people to see the matrix like that as fast as possible, they can literally turn around and give it back to the CRO to say, go find us more money now and we know we're not going to break ourselves on the back end.
[00:55:34] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and I can see that it's a great alternate perspective where revenue isn't an issue.
It's the being able to see what's going on within the business is the issue. And that's either an operational thing or a finance thing, depending on where the, the issue lies. So maybe that's the answer to the question, instead of chicken or egg or where do you invest first, it's where does the owner have strengths? And then where is it that you're struggling the most right now? Is it bringing in new business or maintaining business or is it, I don't know, I'll have clear line of sight into where anything is going and what things are costing me to be able to more effectively run my business.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I. And that's where the. As you and I continue to build out our combined sales funnel together for both of our programs, the ownership assessment helps people see like their constraints across their, the nine modules to figure out what one of those compartment, you know, departments that we need to focus on first so we can keep that escape velocity, momentum growing. Then inside of that is, you know, module five for me is your whole program, right? So then it's like, okay, for predictable revenue, then we're double clicking as you and I are saying it's a fractal then. So now we're now back to another three phases and nine modules and the whole roadmap for you for revenue.
The challenge that is the same thing on finance. The challenge that I see in these departmental issues is the lack of understanding of the doers internally and the complete and utter misalignment with agencies. Whether it's telemarketing agent. You're already laughing. Telemarketing agencies or pay per click agencies or website development agencies or we set appointments for you and it's this pure fear that drives the owner operator to spend more money to try and have the magic wand for more revenue.
And these agencies or people are going to connect or just say, oh sure, I can do that. And then all of a sudden the outcome is not there. So like, the question I'm, I think trying to wrestle with is knowing that that's the main problem and there's not a ton of resources to assign a perfect Kim Clark to the problem.
How do you, you know, jigsaw your way to, to the outcome without falling in these ridiculously painful traps?
[00:58:01] Speaker B: It's a really good question, Ryan, because I would like to think that there are many more capable professionals at that CRO thinking everything that we've been talking about right now. But you're right, the people that will just continue to take your money because they're deploying ideas are, I mean, in the thousands.
I mean, there's just, they're, they're everywhere. And so I mentioned on my podcast with my dad yesterday, if you feel like you're shooting from the hip or throwing spaghetti at the wall, you are like, if you feel that way, then you are. And everything that we've talked about here today, everything that you and I are building is a system that is predictable, teachable and on purpose. It is not. It is the direct opposite of that feeling is basically like that. And so I know that doesn't give an exact answer. Work with a fractional person or work with. I can't list off the top of my head, here's the person to go to if you're feeling this.
[00:59:02] Speaker A: That's a struggle, right?
[00:59:04] Speaker B: That I have all of my clients that I'm working with that have mentioned to me the amount of money they've invested in some form or another in agencies and it just blows my mind.
[00:59:16] Speaker A: Or I mean, I was sitting down with a friend of mine. There are a million dollars into salespeople's payroll in the last 24 months with like trying to think of how they worded it.
He said, I have more gross profit in my pocket right now than with.
Which was nothing like a couple pennies. So it's all. It's all. And I think this is the. This is the rampant issue of all advisors and all consultants who are just trying to pay their own bills when the owner doesn't understand how all these components fit together. And the only thing I can give as an analogy is the healthcare system is a complete and utter train wreck. Dumpster fire in the US no one cares about how we feel other than ourselves.
We have to be responsible for understanding it. Because what I think about Kim, when our programs, it's.
It's knowledge and it's so cliche. But knowledge becomes power for decision making.
[01:00:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:00:10] Speaker A: And decision making that's clear. Compounds faster than anything else because we know where to spend our time and our money. So it's like the whole stop running through the forest to figure out which direction you're going first because, and I am truly curious, I want to hear your thoughts about how I think that we can solve this and what your eyes mission is. And also with the pat, the like, the likes of PAT and other people is if owner operators know how this shit works, it's easier to spot the people that don't know what the hell they're doing.
[01:00:39] Speaker B: Yes, 100%.
I see that also with my clients. Like, I like my call that I have coming up after here. He was working with like six or seven different vendors hired me at this point. I think he's fired 50% of them and he's on his way to firing the other 50% because he's like, I've talked with Kim three times and now I know all of you are BS and don't know what you're doing.
Like, so I think you're right. Once an owner sees what good looks like, the light bulb goes off and they're like, that makes sense. I just didn't know it could be real.
And that's why it's just so important to share that with them.
[01:01:11] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like I go back to that call on Monday with the group. Like, it's like, you and I are not trying to overwhelm anybody because I've gotten that feedback and that in like in. For a long time, I was like hesitating like I know him a lot. Like, I know I love a lot of this stuff, but like, if we don't know this, we're just making shit up and we're just getting screwed and not on purpose by all these people. You know what I mean? But it's like it's not, it's to learn this stuff, not to do it. And I think Darren specifically said that. Right. It's like, it's so that way we can delegate.
It's learn it, go. Okay, now I know what ICP and winning position is now. Now I know what the client acquisition costs and how to actually calculate that. Thank you for the list. We don't have that. So it's like by going through these nine modules and the three phases in this assessment, it's like now I can look at my agency or my manager and it's like, you don't have to hire that person right away. And I, I get encouraged, Kim, because. And I'm curious on your side with your clients.
I watch my clients and like with my owner operators education, they're capable of leveling up their internal people at a rate that's way further, way, way faster than being able to like hire other outside people.
[01:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that in most cases. Yeah.
[01:02:34] Speaker A: What do you think we're missing? Is there anything else that you want to cover before we part ways?
[01:02:42] Speaker B: I'm trying to think. We covered a lot of, a lot of ground. What good looks like? If you feel like you're shooting from the hip, you probably are.
Number one trait, my dad said on our recent podcast of an owner is to be open to change.
And then my number one piece of advice was always try to surround yourself with people smarter than you.
[01:03:04] Speaker A: I love that.
I agree with that. That's why I love working with you. As a maybe a takeaway for both of us is we are working towards doing our 90 day board of blueprints together.
Hopefully I got a couple people like hopefully April, if we want to launch one. So on the ownership side, you have your chief revenue officer, your predictable revenue coaching program that we are actively working on. All of those are going to be inside of the owner's academy. So we're, you and I are both actively working in conjunction with each other to try and organize all this stuff. We'll have roadmaps and assessments like all based on the stuff that you're talking about. Anything else you want to lay the groundwork with? I know it's not all out tomorrow, but we're going to keep doing these podcasts, and hopefully people keep following along.
[01:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think the only thing that I would add to that is that I wouldn't necessarily use the word try. We are building, and I am super excited for when it all goes live and we can help all these people. People, because there's obviously a need there for it.
[01:04:03] Speaker A: Well said.
[01:04:03] Speaker B: We're.
[01:04:03] Speaker A: We're crushing it. Like, I'm. I'm freaking pumped. Like, yeah, we. These. These tools that we're building is.
It's so fun watching it come into action because it's organized ideas that make sense to people, and, I mean, even a little takeaway for everybody if.
Because it's February 5th, if you record this, depending on when you listen to it, we either have this entire assessment done for Kim or throw this transcription from YouTube into GPT and come up with a list of questions for yourself that you should be asking your agencies and your salespeople, because you can grab the transcript and. And just go do it yourself.
[01:04:40] Speaker B: I like it. Accountability, it's key.
[01:04:43] Speaker A: All right, Kim. Well, we. Look at that. We got two extra minutes. Who would have thought?
[01:04:46] Speaker B: We did it.
Thanks for having me on, Ryan. Lots of fun talking through it. I appreciate it. Sa.
