Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Independence by Design podcast, where we discuss what it means to be a business owner and ways to get unstuck from the day to day so we can design a business that gives us a life of independence.
The questions that have been filling the boardroom that I've been involved in recently are, where are all the good leaders? What do they care about? What makes them motivated? What are they going through right now? And these questions are the exact reason that I was excited to have Meg Gold on the podcast. My wife Megan came across some of her material on LinkedIn, and I started poking around on some of the stuff that Meg is doing. And she created this community called Bond, which is for professional women in their second and third acts. And Meg, through her corporate career, she was in private equity. She's been in some high powered executive leadership positions. She realized that there was just this massive gap in authenticity. And leaders that can be themselves, do hard stuff, you know, make decisions based on what's right and their values that they have. And I just see this massive chasm between all of the people that Meg's talking about and all the people I'm working with. And there's gotta be this connection. So I'm trying to do my job to provide the first stepping stone of the bridge between these two worlds. I'm very pumped for all the owner operators out there for you to listen in to hear what Meg's talking about of what do the real people really want with a company? Because I believe that all the people I work with just embody the place that Megan, the leaders that she's working with, actually want to land. So I'm excited for you to listen in. If you want to get a appearance inside of the heads and the minds and the hearts of the next level leaders that you're trying to recruit, this is going to be it. Meg's doing some really cool stuff and I'm happy to share the word and the things that she's doing. All right, everybody, enjoy the conversation with Meg. Meg, I am super excited. As I was just saying, my wife had snapshot one of your posts and was like, oh my God, you got to talk to Meg. So I was like, meg, meet, you know, meet me. And it's like, what got me really interested to hear about your story and what you're doing and the building the community of women leaders is with my clients who have privately held owner operator companies.
And you've got a private equity background. I'm really excited to hear your understanding and the exposure that you've had to that. But on the highest level, my clients are owner, operator, love businesses who are trying to essentially implement the private equity family office playbook without selling.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: It's, it's so I'm having so much fun because I want to get them to the point where they have optionality, sell it, keep it, keep the distributions, whatever it is. But building high powered teams, building really good leaders. And like there's this whole like mechanical playbook. You know, it's like, okay, you got to get the financials and you got all this stuff, but then when you build the whole machine, it ends up landing in leaders. And leaders are so freaking important.
The reality of it all. Right, so you can like theorize about all this stuff, you can do all the mechanics, but at some point you have to actually delegate. And so I'm really interested to hear about your private equity background and then this community that you're building and your perspective on leaders and specifically women leaders. So that's kind of like sweet.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: It sounds very aligned. I can totally see why your wife screenshot it.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I was like, okay, okay. You didn't know all that when I was like, okay, yeah, Megan, you were commenting. I'm like, this is gonna be good. So. Yeah.
Where do you want to start? You want to just kind of give us the high level overview and then we can unpack quite a couple different parts of it.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Sure. So do you want high level overview of like career, personal, where do you want to go?
[00:03:31] Speaker A: You know, when you said we had this on, you wanted to have this on the, on the record. Like we started going through the transit, you know, the background and ADP and stuff like that. So maybe like, let's start with what are you building right now and why.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Sure.
So my co founder and I are building Bond, which is a private community, private professionals club for women and women that are in the second and third parts of their careers. So not entry level, not women that are like really still trying to figure out where to start, but really having that 12, 15 years of experience like ourselves. It's like, all right, I have all this personal ip, I have all this lived experience, whether it's in corporate or door to door selling, whatever, my dad's business, all the different ways that like, it's your life and you get to a point where you're like, now what do I actually do with this? And in order to actually identify that, and then once you do, you need access points and you need that network. We just briefly talked about the power of it and I know we'll get into it more. But you need that at work and that network and that shared IP and those access to. To be able to bring your idea to fruition to the point where you actually believe it's going to happen from, like, for real. And so the women that are joining Bond aren't necessarily people that are leaving corporate.
They a good chunk are or ones that are kind of dabbling in new ideas or founders themselves. They also can be people that are staying in corporate.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: So it's this shuffling things around.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Exactly. It's this multifaceted of like, okay, well, do I actually want to like, climb this ladder or is there a different career pivot for me or do I actually want to get into startups within corporate? So it's not necessarily only just for people who are wanting to leave corporate and then going and launching or absolutely using the community and the access points for that. But it's also just a community to allow for resource sharing, access points in a vetted network to be able to get where you want to go next within this, like, second and third part of our life.
[00:05:34] Speaker A: I love it so much. So relevant to so many parts of my home life, of what's going on, which is probably why my wife is
[00:05:41] Speaker B: following you and I'd love to chat with her. Yeah.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: Where did this inception point happen for you? Like, why is this such a mission and why is this so important to you and how did this come to be?
[00:05:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
So I think it's important to recognize, like, why I got to this point or how I got to the point to begin with. So I moved to Minneapolis, which you're familiar with. And I remember thinking, like, when I graduated, I'm going to move to the next this big city. And it was Minneapolis for me because I'm not from big city. And I moved there and got the very first job that was technically on my radar. And it wasn't necessarily something I was looking to do or wanting to do. It was just the first job offered to me. And I think so many people, that's their story. Right. We're just in survival mode at that point. To be able to get enough money
[00:06:35] Speaker A: to buy the bird that launches out of the nest and you, like, get a job.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Okay.
Like my parents, like, sure, if you want to move to Minneapolis, you can, but you have to get a Craig. A roommate on Craigslist. Like, quite literally. I was interviewing random people at the Caribou Coffee in Bloomington.
[00:06:53] Speaker A: Nothing dangerous or weird about that. Right. As we think about that's beyond.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: They were like, okay, you can move there. We'll pay for two months rent. And I love this about them. Like, we'll pay for two months rent, but by then, you better have another
[00:07:06] Speaker A: roommate figure it out.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Did you get pitched any Amway in any of those interviews?
[00:07:11] Speaker B: No. So I'm sitting there at Caribou Papi's, like, I got to figure this out. I'm literally finding a random Craigslist roommate to get to this point. So you're just in survival mode at this stage. You're like, anybody that wants to give you any money, you're like, I'm 100% in.
So I ended up, through trial and error, taking a job at adp. Will forever be grateful for this job. It taught me so. It taught me everything. Like, it taught me so much. It also taught me what I want and don't want about now. This second and third chapter, which I think is super beautiful about it. It's not even a knock, right? And so I am full blown Sarah Blakely, like, her knocking on doors, selling fax machines. I'm doing that for payroll. Like, I'm walking in, like, territories like Stillwater and Woodbury and all these places.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Where was your zip code? Territories.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: So, like, literally, those places that I
[00:08:04] Speaker A: was just telling you because I live in Stillwater. I don't know if I. If you knew that.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I know.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: And so that's how I asked her. I'm like, is that cute little bike shop cafe still open? That's where I would literally be turning in, like, like, paper sales orders. Because, like, I. Or, like, looking up on a map, like, where do I go next on my paper planner? Because technology is, like, Garmins are, like,
[00:08:28] Speaker A: just coming out or whatever. And, yeah, it's.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: So I'm just bopping around, like, Minneapolis. I absolutely love this job. Like, it created this sense of, like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna figure it out. And it taught me how to sell. It taught me how to relate to people. It taught me how to deal with adversity. It taught me how. Like, there's so much about it that was just incredible. My boss was my biggest fan. Like, he was a huge part of why I'm successful today because he just, like, believed in me from the jump and then, like, gave me any and all resources I need needed to be successful. And he really taught me, like, how to lead like a human. And first, which I know we'll probably touch on, but so I get into this role. I end up being really good at it. So then, of course, what happens? You get promoted to lead people. And I remember thinking, like, I don't think I want to be a leader. And I called my brother, who is my. My older brother, and I was like, I don't think I want to be a leader. I think I love what I'm doing. I have all this autonomy. I'm good at it. And he was like, you can always try it. And if you don't like it, you can always go back. Like, just give it a shot. Just try it.
And of course, so I try it. I love it.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: You like, you like leaving it?
[00:09:43] Speaker B: I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I loved my loved leading people and really recognized, like, I love the leading people way more than I loved the sales part.
And so then I was good at that.
So then I got promoted again, and this time I got tapped on the shoulder to leave Minneapolis. My husband and I had just gotten married. It's 2017, and two months after we get married, our parents are thinking, like, they're going to have babies. We're all living in the Midwest together. Like, all this.
I get a call, can you move to see San Francisco and run this region out here? Like, it's underperforming. It's not. It's not working. Like, can you come out here and basically, like, flip everything over and rebuild it?
And my husband and I were walking down, like, Stone Arch Bridge in Minneapolis. I love talking to a Minneapolis person because you can picture all these details.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: We were like, I think we do it.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: So what's your husband doing at this time?
[00:10:42] Speaker B: So my husband was working at ADP as well. We started on the exact same day. I shook his hand and said, sounds like we're going to be besties.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: And oh, that's awesome.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Here we are almost 12 years later now at this point with two babies, but. And so we reload to the bay. Best decision we ever did. It was something that I think really started our marriage off right with like, just the two of us kind of on our own. We took a shot at our careers, ended up being good at that as well. That's actually where I met my now co founder. And again, the trajectory and the. The reason I'm painting this picture is you start something out of necessity. You're good at it. You keep getting promoted through that process, and you never really stop to think. A couple questions.
Do I really want to do this? Is this something that I actually like it, or did it just happen to Me. And not that you're not grateful for it. But then the third and most important question that ended up hitting me hard was, how big is my network out there?
As I've been so heads down here? And so after about 13, 14 years, I'm working in private equity in the Bay now, like at adp, supporting that channel was good at that. Like, all these things is, like, all good things. But I got to a point where after having my son, I think there's always that life moment. I remember holding him, and I remember very clearly thinking, if I'm not with him, I better love what I'm doing. And that was when, like, all those questions swelled in where you're like, did
[00:12:17] Speaker A: you think about it prior to that?
[00:12:21] Speaker B: I don't think that I thought about it in a way that I was, like, going to actually take action. I think I always, like, would think about it or talk about it on walks with my husband, like, is this what I'm gonna do forever? It was like those more types of
[00:12:33] Speaker A: kind of flippant, but, like, a little less real. Yeah.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: This one was like.
And like, it was. There was like, action behind it. Like, if I'm not with him, I better love what I'm doing. It just like, hit different. And then it was like, what is that? Like that. And that was.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: How did you. How did you process it in the moment?
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Did it.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Did it bring fear, anxiety?
Action?
Did you have a clear answer?
[00:12:58] Speaker B: No, I didn't have a clear answer, but maybe this is my personality. I didn't have a clear action, but it created. Or a clear answer, but it created action.
So. And my husband's so good at this point. He's such a great partner for me because he knows that my action, like me in motion, creates answers, not necessarily the other way around. And so I.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Did you know that about yourself?
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Resigned? I don't. I don't know.
That's a good question.
I think this was one of the times.
Yeah. I think maybe because even think about the Craigslist thing. Like, I got the rent.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Before you were in sales too, Mike.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: I just think that there's something. Because, I mean, talk about Sarah Blakely. I mean, my family business was copiers, 400 phone calls, 15 appointments, seven net news, five proposals, three closes every single month or where you're fired.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Like, and that news is the word. Net news is giving me ptsd.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
Did you log it in the CRM? Like, yeah, but, like. But they're like, I think that I'm digressing I want to come back to your question or the comment is. I just think sales.
Like, you have to.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: Like, there's just no option not to. So, like, when I hear, like, your background. I was looking. I mean, just, like, it makes sense. That's why I think, was it conscious that you create action and you figure things out? Or was it. And, like, is that how, like, conscious?
[00:14:31] Speaker B: I think it was always a part of my life. Like, I'm. To your point, even this story, I'm getting the roommate or I'm getting the apartment before the roommate. And, like, I have a deadline. I have quota.
Figure it out. And, like, you just do it. And so I think that I've always been really good at being, like, under the gun, under pressure, having the end goal that I need to attain, and then, like, okay, I have to go figure that out. And so that was probably how I operated in this.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: So you're looking at your. Your. You say, son, so not a clear answer that you wanted to keep doing this. You want to start acting. What, like, what was it? Anxious? Or was it, like, what was the emotions going through? And then how did you start acting to, like, calm down those emotions?
[00:15:25] Speaker B: I think it was just more like a great question because I'm going right back there. Like, I can picture it. I think it was knowing, like, I.
This is the moment. Like, this is that question, if. With. What was the moment that made you go from that to this?
That this is that moment. And if I don't do this, my answer to that question will be, I never had that moment because I went back. And so I think the feeling was just like, this is it. Like, this is the time to make this decision. And so it was just more clarity, I think, probably, than anything, and just, like, trusting.
Trusting that, like, I'm gonna land on my feet and it's. This is.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: You'll figure it out.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Did you. Did you immediately think that where you currently were has to change? Or was it. Or were you in this process of I need to figure out if it is where I want to be?
[00:16:29] Speaker B: No, it was time to go.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: It's so fascinating to me, Meg, and. And why I think that this is such a helpful conversation is because I am for sure wired like you. Like, I'm gonna digress for a second. This relates. So have you ever seen that video of this guy? He's on a whiteboard, and he's got this matrix, and it's the around or find out.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: No, no. I see, like, the crazy hot. Yeah.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: I think it's the same guy. I'm not exactly sure.
I actually I'm, I feel maybe ashamed to admit that I showed this to my 9 year old girls because it's out of 10. So it's a, you know, it's a matrix of x, y axis. And he goes, okay, if you would like to find out at a seven, you need to fuck around at a seven.
But if you really want to find out at a 10, you need to fuck around at a 10. But if you never want to find out, you never fuck around, right? So now every time we're in my, my house I'm like, how do you find out? And my group, because my girls won't swear.
So they're like, dad. But like, what's so fascinating to me is it is just this action that I'm hearing from you and why, I mean, and as we move towards your community, what you're doing is like, it becomes paralyzing to people. And I don't resonate with that because I would rather just deal with all of the crazy complications of figuring things out versus the resentment and the anxiety that I get from staying still.
And so my, my app, my personality is wildly different than people that'll sit there. But that's why I was asking like, how clear were you before you started going? And then how. And I don't know if you know, noticed this with people in the women in your community, but like that next step that you took, I think takes a ton of courage.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: It's. But what you're saying is so real and I think people don't talk about it enough. You're pro, you're solving problems either direction. Like, yeah, what problems do you want to solve? Do you want to solve the problems that are going to move you forward and the ones that are going to get you where you want to go, or do you want to solve the problems of like doing the forecast that you hate and doing the like calls with whoever that just like that news, like boring, like whatever that might look like. And at one point that didn't, that wasn't exhausting. Like at one point that was.
We were scaling and we were figuring it out, but when you feel like you're no longer supposed to be in that room.
My. One of my best friends is married to somebody that's very high up at HP and he moved around a lot. And I remember very clearly my husband and I were having dinner with them one night and we were like, how do you know when to go?
Because he was like, at Staples and Groupon and all these different things. And my husband asks great questions and he asked straight, straight up, like, how did, how do you know when to go? And he said, when I'm the smartest person in the room.
When I find myself being the smartest person in the room is when I know it's my time to go. And I remember thinking so often, like, not that it's in a cocky way or a competent way, and he even preface that later by, you know, explaining it, but it's when you're bored, like, when you feel like you've done all these pieces. In some people, the know when to go is a promotion. That's why it doesn't always have to be that you're leaving and like blowing up the house and like something else. But that's, in my opinion, such a clear sign of, like, I'm now in the wrong room. And if you out of fear and paralyzation situation stay, you're still solving problems. It just feels like problems you know how to solve because you're not leaving. But there's something so inspiring, and maybe it is a personality trait, but there's something so inspiring about solving new problems and problems that you know are getting you somewhere.
Like, that is an addicting feeling.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: I love it to resonate with like, the clients that I end up dealing with, the owner, operators and that are. They have the same, like, they have the same situations going on where, like, they have that and they're like, oh, I own this thing and I have a hundred people's payroll tied to this machine that I now have a visceral reaction to. And I think whether it's a job or a company or whatever someone's situation is, is rethinking it without blowing it up. And I'm curious on how you, how you think about that. Where, like, how do you process before? Like, what is there a certain thing that, like a decision tree that you process before acting and like moving the rooms? Because maybe it is the right room. You just have to like, recalibrate the perspective.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's. I don't necessarily think that. I think I probably do process things more and I just haven't figured out either how to articulate that yet or even like, I don't stop enough to really put the processes in place. My co founder is very good at processes. You find your yang to the Yang, my jumbled brain. And like, it's like, okay, I'm going to put this down in a notion doc, because like, that's Good. But, like, you're a lot.
So she's an angel.
But I think at the end of the day, it's like figuring out, like, if not this, then this. But it doesn't necessarily mean you need to blow things up. Like, there's always.
I have a sign in my son's playroom, I have two little boys. Like, everything is figureoutable, period. Like, that is literally the only sign that is in their playroom, and that is that simple. Like, everything is figureoutable. And it doesn't always mean that they need to be huge pivots. It doesn't always mean that you need to, like, blow up the ship or fire everybody or do all these different things. Like, even when we relocated to the bay, my job was to literally flip the house. That doesn't mean fire everyone and restart. Did that happen in some cases because people didn't create, like, didn't come.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Come on board, didn't need to, or they didn't come with you?
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Exactly. Of course. But there's these minor tweaks that happen, and there's certain. There's so many different.
Everybody that runs a business or is really involved in all the operations of it knows there's so many levers of a business that if you tweak the levers slowly and steadily but really thoughtfully, you start to see these, like, nice little shifts that take place. And that, I think, is super important. So many people like, oh, this social media strategy isn't working. Oh, this.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: This whiplash.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Just like, oh, this isn't working. And I would call that hot potato management. And it freaking drove me crazy because it was like, oh, my gosh, here you go, hot potato. You're throwing things around. Like, you're not actually thinking about things.
You're not sifting things from corporate down to your people. And, like, they really need to know all that. Or, like, can you filter it? And I think there's something really important as a leader, founder, human parent, to, like, make these small adjustments and these small shifts rationally, not emotionally. Keep a cool, calm, collected head about decision making and adjust things slightly. Watch. Adjust things slightly, slightly and watch and go from there. But not be. Not be nervous to try new things. Like, it's okay if things don't work. That doesn't mean it's bad. It's actually great that you found that out. There's a quote that I love, and you will like this from, like, a sales strategy as well. But I think this goes also with, like, operational shifts. And it says if you knew that the yes. Was at your hundredth ask how excited would you be to get 99? No, like now your nose and like your fails and like, oh, that social media strategy didn't work. Or this, you know, whatever strategy insert X. Like, thinking about it that way, I think is so different where instead of people are like, oh, I've gotten four nos. And it's like, no.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Like, it's part of the process.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: It's so part of the process. Like, imagine if it's the hundreds.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: The only way you find out is yes, exactly.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: And so it creates this thing of like, okay, cool, I'm glad that didn't work because now I know that that's not the thing. Let's try the other thing. Let's keep going for the other thing. And I think that that's really important to keep that mindset mind, you know, mindset.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: So one of the things that I have come to realize is very few people know what they want.
So it sounds like you. Then, you know, this domino gets pushed over. And now you're in the process of figuring it out as you're building this community and you're helping people think about this next stage. Like, hi. Like, I mean, do you. Do you see that? That people don't necessarily want know what they want and they get stuck in this, like, rumination and they just kind of spin like.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Like 100.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: Why do you think that is? Honestly?
[00:25:09] Speaker B: I was there. Like, I remember I was. So I'm in sf.
Everyone's a founder or in startup or like, this is San Francisco.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: I can just picture it has energy.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Like, there's so much going on and I'm sitting there selling payroll, like on my HP computer. You know, like at a coffee shop. Like, oh, I'm on hp. Everyone else is on Mac doing really cool Mac things. Like, I'm on an hp and I remember thinking like, I shouldn't be on an hp. I should be on a Mac. But what's my. What's my Mac? What's my thing that like, belongs on a Mac? I don't know. And I would be listening to how I built this all the time. Like when I would be walking when I get my nails done. Like, I was always listening to guy ask these questions. And I would be even overhearing conversations at coffee shops with founders or people thinking about starting a company. And I always remember thinking like, this is not a mean thing.
I always remember thinking like, they're not that great. Like there's. Unless you're like Elon or somebody like, crazy genius of Course, like, everybody's just trying things, but the only thing they're doing is doing. That's it. Like, the only thing they're doing that I'm not is physically doing it. That's it. And so I remember thinking, like, if they can do it, why can't I? But then here's your question. What's my what? Right? Like, what is my thing?
And I would be walking with my husband, and he loves real estate. He loves investing in real estate, talking about real estate. And I was always so jealous because I was like, how do you find your, like, your thing?
And I was really frustrated. I was, like, thinking of all these ideas. I would hear something and be like, oh, maybe that, maybe that, maybe that.
And I think that that sucks. Like, it's really hard when people have an entrepreneurial excitement and interest. And I can completely relate to this. Like. But finding your thing is really hard. And finding the thing that actually feels like you. I would do this for free because I feel that way about bond. You feel that way about what you built.
That is really hard to find. When you're trying to find what your thing is. Some people, it comes naturally. They happen to find it or stumble on it. Other people are looking for it, and it's.
It is hard to find your thing. And I think that.
Just starting to talk about it, identifying potentially, like, things you like, things you don't. One thing that we leaned into a lot, my husband and I, when we would be chatting about it, is this thing called the fulfillment triangle. Have you ever heard of that?
[00:27:52] Speaker A: I've not heard of that, no.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: So it's the fulfillment triangle. You can look it up. It's where opportunity meets, potential meets. Oh, gosh, here I am, like, gonna butcher this. Meets, like, your meets, your experiences. So, like, truly, what. And maybe that's not exactly.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: You heard of the icky guy?
[00:28:11] Speaker B: No.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Oh, you'd like it. Icky. Guys, the reason for being. I've got it right here. It's what you love, intersects with what you're good at, intersects with what the world needs. Intersections, what you can be paid for.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: And it's amazing.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: It's a Japanese term, and there's no word for it in America and us in English. Yeah. But anyways, it sounds very, very, very similar to that fulfillment triangle.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: And so it's thinking through, like, all right, well, yeah, there is this swell of my life that I've always love to do. This or this has kind of been something that's been natural to me and all those different layers and so I think there are certain things out there that can help people be in those lanes rather than just being like, oh, I want to build something because it's the easiest thing to make money with right now, or something I want to do. But I feel like that has to feel like another job at some point versus something that you'd be like, I'm going to build this and do this because I love it or because I want it.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: How did you go through that process? What was the combination of reflecting like this versus effing around to find out and like, like, was there a process of kind of balancing those two?
[00:29:14] Speaker B: Yes. And then all of a sudden, none of that mattered. And then bond came. So there it's like a balance.
So here I am walking around the. Like, this is when I'm pregnant and was like, kind of having this swell of like, am I seriously going to do this, like forever, right? Like this ADP thing, I don't really know.
And he's doing the real estate stuff. I'm talking fulfillment triangle. Listening to how I built this. I'm like, now I'm. And then I have the baby, I'm like, I'm not doing this. So then I'm listening to how I built this on matlab, like, hard.
And like, this is bad. And so I end up just saying, like, action, I'm. I'm leaving. I don't know, burn the ships.
I got no plan.
And so then that's when I looked up Ryan and was like, holy crap, my network is so narrow. It's not like I don't have a network. It's just so narrow. It's ADP people or people that are in hcm, or people that have left ADP and went to another company that's similar to adp, like, that's my guy, that's who I got. Or people from college that are doing stuff that's just maybe not necessarily aligned.
And I was like, I did not look up ever. And so my advice to so many young kids is like, you have to look up and out so often. It's so incredibly critical. Even if you don't think you're ever going to leave, it's still so important to look for other people's perspectives, different job functions, industries, etc, because you just never know.
And so I leave corporate, I don't know what I'm going to do next. And so then I start doing what everybody does, which is start LinkedIn, messaging, people being like, hey, Lash, let me know.
Want to talk? And somebody that I sold payroll to Back at. In Minneapolis, he was a one employee guy. So like a tiny little deal.
He was like, you were always so inspiring. Like I still reference my sales call with you with people like today.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: 13 years later. And he, he's like a one employee s corp, like this small account and he's like, I am doing a venture firm. And so we have multiple holding company. You know, we're a holding company, multiple clients in it. And I would love to bring you on to help us with our go to market and our revenue and all that stuff from like a contract perspective.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Cool.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Then I was like, okay, I'll be, I'll start to open a 1099. Here's action first like then I'll create a 1099. We'll go from there. I'll pop open a website just to legitimize myself or anybody else that might be potentially looking for this. And off I went. So then somebody that I hired back at adp, which was Parnian Mike, now co founder of Bond, saw that I was doing this consulting work. She starts being a Bond member before it even existed. And she proactively introduces me to her company, which was TaskRabbit. And she said, Meg's one of the best leaders I ever had. We have to get her in front of TaskRabbit. Like she needs to be involved. So her and I start picking up conversation and then I start building out my consulting business. So that was kind of my like bridge between the, like the.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: Phil, you're just doing, you're doing stuff.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: You're, you're, you're bringing in something. Yeah, exactly.
[00:32:31] Speaker A: What I think is so, so let me. Super helpful and I'm really excited to, to unpack a part of this. So let me give you a couple of my observations. So from personal networks. Like I'm turning 40 this year. So we're all very similar. Like my, all my friend groups I got, we got a very large group of friends from college and a very large group of friends from my wife's high school.
Amazing human beings that are all in this stage of life that you're talking about, which are the same stage that either. So like half my clients are our age that have companies that are looking to grow and the other half are more on the. I need to figure out how to transition to someone else. But everybody's kind of dealing with this like age group of like, okay, it's either going to be the leaders that are going to, you know, build this company or it's going to be Let me, let me go back to what I was going to say. So the, the inability for my clients who freaking need good leaders, they can't find them. And then everybody I'm talking to on my personal side, like, I hate my job or like, this is like. And I'm just going like, the recruitment situation is so screwed and so many people are dealing with. On the, like, on the, on the leadership side, what you're talking about, we're like, they don't have a network. And I just, I can't relate to that because, like, I can't relate to that. I mean, like, since I had sales and then that, what I've been doing, it's like, it's so plentiful, I don't know what to do about it. And so, like, I watched this and it's like watching this supply demand situation with no communication in between other than recruiters, which don't help people with like, okay, well, what does someone want?
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Like, let's put. You know what I think it is? No one's being authentic. No one. Yeah, but like, if companies.
That's what's happening. Like you just said, two audiences, if they just started to talk to each other, like, things would start to go, like, go down. So, like, here's the example. Like, I was on a call and someone was like, how do you make leadership more human? And I'm like, leadership is human. Like, but I mean, it's a great question because society has created that to be an actual fair.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Fair. Fair point. I. It's like, I, like, I actually was listening to who the hell was it? Naval Ravikant maybe. It's like, how do you ask a sapling to be more of an oak tree?
It's like, well, just. It is a. It's a freaking oak tree. It's just not there yet. But like, at no point is it not. Not an oak tree. And it's just. And like, I just, I, I agree with you, Meg. And like, it's wild to me because that's why I was excited to have you on. Because, like, you're. It seems like you're beach heading into this, going, like, we need real leaders. Like all of my clients. It's like, if you want to keep your company and you want this thing to grow and you want to not be the fricking person that's doing all this shit, we need to find these type of people. And then it's like, well, where do you find them? Then you go to these recruiters and it's like, like, It's AI bots creating the resumes and AI bots creating the.
[00:35:22] Speaker B: So then you know what I would tell them first?
They're not finding those people. You just said it. The recruiters find them. So, like, immediately, right off the bat, those leaders need to find that talent and like, they need to get the followership first. I'll give you an example. Parni, my literal co founder of Bond.
I am in sf. You know, I have to flip house. I meet the region for the first time ever in December. The first time I meet them is the Christmas party, the holiday party. I am in an ugly Christmas wear, like, meeting the region, looking at me like, who's this Midwest person coming to the Bay Area to tell us what to do? Like, get out of here. And I'm like, I know I'm getting looks. This is like I'm walking into the lion's den. 1.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: How was your ugly sweater though? Was it good?
[00:36:12] Speaker B: It was a ridiculous ugly sweater. Which means, and I am in this room, I meet the region and then I immediately walk into another room, immediately to an interview. My first ever interview is the vice president of this region.
It is, pardon my now co founder. She just moved all the way, drove from D.C. to San Francisco full blown, basically living out of her car, quite literally. Like, all her stuff is still in the car. She's like just trying to even find her footing.
We get in the room and I'm like doing the interview stuff. And finally I was like, you know what?
Maybe it was because it was a fresh start. And I was like, the only way I'm gonna actually be effective here is if I freaking just am dead honest. Like, I'm done. I'm not gonna do this corporate stuff. People are either gonna be like a, like a pat, I'm gonna get followership, or I'm not. Like, I don't have time to not do this. So I look at her, I'm like, here's the deal. I just moved here from Minneapolis. I just met the region for the very first time. I'm in this ugly Christmas sweater.
Here's what I'm tasked to do.
Are you in or are you out? Literally, this is my first interview to somebody that's going to report to me. Do you know how many leaders would be like, you can't do that. You can't, you can't tell her like that you're about to flip the region and do all these things. Like, you can't be that vulnerable and open on an interview. Like, you have to be the polished One. And, you know, like, it's. She. No, it's like, I'm talking to her. Like, I'm grabbing a beer with her. And like an airport layover.
She sits there and she pauses for a second. She looks down, and she's like, I'm 100 in. From that moment forward, she was 100 in. And she helped set the expectation. She was like my rabbit. Like, all these things. Every interview from then on, that's exactly the expectation I set. Like, you're either in or you're out. This. This is the reality. And it's not cutthroat. It's not like a bros thing. It's just, this is the reality. Here's what.
[00:38:08] Speaker A: We're telling the truth.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Do you like it? Like, and then what they are like, is like, oh, she's actually telling me what's going on in here.
There's authenticity. She's pulling the curtain back. I like her. Like, I'm in. I have immediate followership with this leader, and vice versa. And so I think corporate has created this. Like, no one feels safe. The leaders don't feel safe because they don't want the employees to judge them or make them feel like they are not good leaders. And then the employees feel safe because, God forbid, am I actually, like, I don't know. Right? So if everybody just started to be way more authentic and way more, like, here's what's up. Here's what we're actually trying to accomplish here. Here's what I need from you. Are you in or are you out? The other person's immediately, like, I'm 100. And just because you're a real person, I'm down. And now you're. You guys are good, and you've created this authentic relationship that you're like, you're doing it together.
And that, I think, is what's missing so much between what you just said between, like, the leader and the owner, but not. I could.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: I can't.
I can't agree with you anymore. Like. Like, my whole. I have a. Like, full body. Like, visceral agreement. Yeah. Full body. Yes. Like a whole.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: Hell, yes.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: And let me give you a couple examples. And because I want to talk about. Then how do we deal with this and how do we help solve this problem? Because. So. And it'd be interesting to hear your perspective because of your private equity background. So, like, most of the people that sell the private equity totally f. And hate it because the owner operators that I work with get to be themselves all day, every day. I just got Done with an interview this morning with a guy named Matt who. He wrote the book ADHD Entrepreneur. He was bad at everything. And he created a $18 million car, auto body shop, sold it to private equity. They fucked the whole thing up in six months. Every one of the employees left, besides one out of the 100 and some. He got done with that. He started again. And now he. In the last eight years, he's now 36 million. And you want to what? You look at it because we talked about leadership, and it's like, well, you look at Matt, like, who wouldn't want to work for this guy? He's himself all the time, right?
[00:40:13] Speaker B: And so.
[00:40:14] Speaker A: And it's so.
So I think there's this whole, like, as the private equity machine has come through and all of, like, there is actual, like, financial struggles, you know, in the privately held space of, like, cash flow juggling and all this stuff, which why private equity comes in, all this stuff.
But, like, the true spirit of business and I think our economy is in these privately held owner operators who can literally do whatever they want. And that's why I love my clients. But then what I think is an interesting bridge that you and I are bringing together is like, they're trying to find these people that are the next gen leaders.
And, like, I'm like. I look at them, Megan, I'm like, you all have literally what everybody wants, which is like, you're not private equity. You're not breeding on people's necks. You can totally go in there, be yourself. And what I'm trying to promote to them is start a fricking podcast and YouTube channel. But what it's like to work there, because I even look at my own friends, they're terrified to go quit and go work somewhere else because the chances of it being the same, if not worse, worse is so high.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: So, like, what do you think about.
There's a lot there. But like, like, I'm sure there's a
[00:41:25] Speaker B: couple they also need, like, do they.
I'm getting hot. I have a space here. I'm gonna shut this off. I'm getting actually, like.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: And you're an sf. I'm in Minnesota and I've got a space.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:41:36] Speaker A: That makes sense.
[00:41:37] Speaker B: Hot and upset about this. I think there's a couple ways that you can do this. I got a lot of great talent to work. Work for me because of the people who work for me, telling other people to come work for me.
And so I know that that sounds really obvious, but, like, really making sure they're leaning into that. And this is going to sound way more corporate and it's even not. But it's more corporate than I want it to sound like. Do they have some sort of an employee reward system in place to like, get their employees to just like in like a pretty good one? Like a sizable one?
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Not just $500, not a Starbucks gift card.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I even just said 500. Like, give them money. Like, they're gonna help you, like, get rid of. I'm not gonna say get rid of the recruiter.
On.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: It's really broken. There's.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: There.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: I mean, there's always a couple good people here and there, and I found some of them, but it's still broken. So.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So, like, here's something really, really wonderful, like inside Bond. The reason that we love it is because people have the ability to actually say, hey, I'm considering going to work at this company. Search the company within the. The portal and be like, oh, there's somebody that works there. I'm going to actually talk to them and say, what's it like to actually work there?
[00:42:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: They. Right, that's up to them to have that conversation. Like, what's the maternity leave? Like, what's the. Like what are the leadership? What's the leadership like? Just in general, all the different questions that you may have, same thing goes with job wrecks. So we have the ability for people to actually post the jobs on the portal or even say, can't recommend this company enough. Like, that's happening all the time. So it's not just like, hey, what's it like to work here? But it's also, can't recommend this leader enough. Can't recommend this company enough, like, you should go work here or what have you. So it's also, those layers are like, I know the leader directly don't even apply on the platform. Like, just let me make the intro. So it's creating this, like, natural connection point where it feels really, like, thoughtful and curated. So putting your employees in rooms like Bond proactively. So we have a lot of companies that actually pay for their members to join Bond number one, to give them resources like Bond and like, allow them in rooms that they wouldn't have otherwise had access to. But a small side thing is like, wow, my company, like, sees me, is sponsoring me, giving me access to this resource. They already, like, enjoy working there. Then they feel really, like, proud to be in it.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's literally the opposite of what you know, it's like, it's really just like fear versus love based.
Because like so many people I know, like, not, not my clients, but like other people that I'm connected with personally where like the company won't let them do things because out of fear of losing them.
And it's just, and it just self perpetuates. Well, that just guarantees the resentment to build. Versus like, hey, I'm getting.
[00:44:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like, we just recently had Kim Chappell, who's this chief marketing officer of Bobby Formula. She's got a huge platform, like really, really big following.
And Laura Modi, the CEO there, absolutely is at risk of losing Kim because Kim is known and like really good at what she does. I. Laura is not worried about it at all because Kim is like, she's allowing Kim to be her complete, full self. Like, she's like, you are so valuable. Do whatever you need to do. Go wherever you want to go. Join podcast during work hours. Do your thing, like, build your personal brand, Bobby's or not. Like, that is a perfect example of like, you are also a human in addition to the value you're bringing to the company. Like live your life literally. And so it creates this really great leash that's removed and now Kim is like, I'm, I'm great. Why would I ever, to your point, leave this company instead of on the flip side with what you just said? Well, if I go to another company, what if it's just as restricting as this one?
[00:45:42] Speaker A: What I want to get more into what you're doing on a bond. But the. I want to go back to what you were saying. The lack of authenticity of people being themselves. And I got a couple questions out of seriously personal curiosity because I watched this with my group of friends who are, a lot of them are in like the middle management now and stuff like that. And again, I.
My wife and I are talking about this. We were going over our. I'm looking right above you is my big ass calendar for this whole year. And like my whole whole thing is do whatever I want. Like, I've never once submitted a PTO request my entire life.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: That's cool. Well, it. I.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: A lot of risk and a lot of pain and a lot of heartache has come with that because I've been trying to build stuff. But the my point is, is like, I don't know how to resonate with because I have an allergic reaction to not being able to be myself. I'm willing to learn. Like, I'm willing to grow. But like, when I look at, you know, the challenges of the corporate America, like how Exhausting it must be not being yourself, because that's where, like, my whole soul gets sucked out. Not being myself.
And, like, what's it like? Like, I mean, how.
How do we fix this problem? And, like, how rampant is it? Because I walked around and I'm like, oh, my God, there's so many people that are just, like, half themselves because they're, like, told to do this, or they're dealing with, like, corporate HR stuff, or they're the risk of losing their job. I mean, it just. It just looks just pure exhausting, to be honest.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: It is incredibly exhausting. It's incredibly dangerous. Like, you're doing 40 hours of work or more literally, not yourself.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: And interesting how you are.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: That transitions into how you make decisions. That transitions into, like, how do you end up. How do you eventually, after years and years and years, clock out of that, you know? And, like, how does that then transition into a moment if you actually do want to say, what. What do I do? It's like, how do you pull yourself out of that? Like, well, what. Who am I? Like, who. Who actually am I? And so you. You.
It's not like, everybody is that way, but you are in some capacity. Like, I remember being very much probably one of the most authentic leaders to the point where I actually got, like, talked to often about, like, you can't really do that. You're pushing the grain too much. Like, you're.
[00:48:01] Speaker A: What were things you were doing that you're getting that feedback?
[00:48:05] Speaker B: I would, like, just things around, like, I'm not actually gonna. I'm not gonna tell my team that. Or, like, we're not gonna actually implement that. Like, I don't actually think that that's good for my current team. Like, you guys can do that. That might work for your region, but, like, it's not good for, like, my space. Or, like, we're not gonna implement that in San Francisco. That might work for Florida, but, like, why would what we do in San Francisco work with what you're doing in Philadelphia?
[00:48:31] Speaker A: Like, just, like, pushing back. Yeah.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: And, like, we wouldn't implement it. And like, that.
Like, I just wouldn't do it. And I would flat out say, like, I'm not going to do this. Like, that didn't go well. And, like, this on this. On the flip side, like, I had multiple people tell me, like, you don't play the politics too much. You don't play the politics enough. Or, like, you're too much of an open book. And I'm like, this is so exhausting. Like, I don't And I remember people saying, like, I want to mentor you and teach you how to play politics more. You have a really bright future.
[00:49:01] Speaker A: Oh, thank you.
[00:49:02] Speaker B: Like, you have a really bright future at the company, but, like, you need to learn how to, like, like, play.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: You're not. You're not. You're not really doing well at us brainwashing you, Meg. Can you just fall in line?
[00:49:14] Speaker B: And I was just like, no. And I remember even other times where, like, I had a couple people that were really on my team that reported to me that, like, just, like, talked negatively about each other or other things. Like, just stuff like that. And I pulled them in, and I was like, this isn't allowed. Like, that's not allowed here. You're an absolute cancel. Cancer. Cancer suck. I know you're the top performer, and I'm letting you go today.
And then my leaders were like, she's a top performer. You can't. I was like, I don't care. She's gone. Like, she's a cancer.
[00:49:44] Speaker A: Good for you. Gone.
[00:49:46] Speaker B: And it's like that she's ruining the entire experience for everyone else. I will figure out the number. With her gone, we, as a collective group, I now have all these other people that are like, I'm following her because that girl needed to go.
And even though now and, like, everybody else is like, what's her number? Like, we'll handle it. And we did. We ended up absolutely crushing the number. But it was not well received. And, like, so that's. And it wasn't well received from other people that, like, liked her or liked that type of God.
[00:50:20] Speaker A: You made a hard decision.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: So it was coming from all angles. It was coming from below, from the side, from up, all over the place. Right. So I was very authentic. As authentic as I feel like you could be.
And it's still. You still get these senses of, like,
[00:50:36] Speaker A: grinding to a pulp. I just.
[00:50:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it just. It's. It's very. Yeah. And I love. And honestly, like, I. I really did love my time at adp. So it's really not a reflection of the company.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: I get it. I get it.
[00:50:48] Speaker B: Reflection, truly, of just corporate. Like, it's just this corporate swell of, like, you have to be greenlit or you're not working. Like, you're like. Like, you better be greenlit on Slack or WebEx or whatever. You're not actually working, and it has to be during 8 to 5 or you're not actually working. And it's psych.
[00:51:05] Speaker A: Like, I feel like you're kind of like, when I Said net new you like maybe you should make sure your space heaters off.
Yeah, well I, I'm so appreciative because what I believe Mag. Well like and I look at what you're doing and how needed this is for. I mean it sounds maybe too like for our society, like we need people to be happier. And like when I look at like my mission is to help these owner operator businesses truly build something valuable and special so that way like all of the families that work for them don't have to have 40 hours a week that suck. And like, and like that's why like as you experience probably on the ADP side, I don't know exactly who you were buying and what the private equity arm was, but like it ends up being like sold. Like so you have this like authentic long term culture conscious capitalism. You sell to like the machine and then all of the shit that made it what it was gets sucked out. Not all the time, large percentage of the time. And so if we can make healthy good businesses that last a long time, the what I see, Megan and I could go down a major tangent on this, but there are, there we are running into a demographic cliff that is indescribable worldwide. But also specifically in the US we have a less of a degree than other places. It is such a big deal that like for every five boomers that retire there's one of you and I, it is like so like when you think about like you're like the bond and the community that you're making, like like the value of next gen leaders that are authentic, can make hard decisions, can do hard shit is going to be so high.
It's, it really is an opportunity of a lifetime for people like you and your community.
But like my clients need to find them. And so I'm sitting here going like this has to be solved because everybody's like 60 or 65 and you go okay, well then when they all retire, we can't, we. If you don't want to sell to private equity or your largest competitor and fire all your employees. Like I had to fire 90 employees or out of my 90 employees I fired 60. It was the worst. It was horrible. And so I appreciate what you're doing so much because I want people listening in to realize that like the middle market company that can build something special can attract the people that you're talking about because what you're experiencing is real and it's not just about the six figure salary.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. But leaders like myself included, like this is Something that like fires me up because I think like the, the leaders, the owner operators, like, and I'm happy to take calls from them because I think it starts also with like just having conversations around. Like here's just naturally how you show up for real. Like even just the examples I gave of like in the interview, like just be 100 real. Like really. And that's. Or fire the person in your cult. Like somebody that I really lean leaned into at, at adp, that was a great leader of mine. He said like an inch of cancer can kill a 300 pound man. Like so like lean into it, right? Like just those sorts of things around, like it's, it's so much bigger. Like finding the right leader, finding the right followership, all of those things like are all. It's very similar to what we just talked about. Like moving those operating pieces also like starts with creating like those culture dynamics where your leader feels like they want to show up in that way.
But I just think the overall like swell is they need to find each other. Which is what you're saying like right now in this, in this interesting way because they're there. Like there's so many even members in Bond that are like, I am, they're amazing, authentic women. That's literally why they're buying into the community is they're like, I am done with the like the non bullshit. I'm done with like this perfect. Like that's why Bond is not a networking group. Like a networking group is like put your name tag on, show up your perfect self. Like show that you do well and like try to get the next promotion. Like that is corporate. Like that if that's what you like, like go, please continue to work at corporate. But if that is not what you want to do when you get in the car after those things and you exhale and you're like, okay, now I can finally be myself. Like don't, don't even apply.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: Like don't love it.
[00:55:30] Speaker B: The other side is like if you want to exhale in community and actually be like, okay, this is where I can actually freaking be myself and have real conversations.
That is the type of room that we're creating. And like they're incredible people, incredibly successful leaders that work at big companies that are very, very talented also starting their own or what all the different pieces that are happening, like they need access or they need to know about whoever it is that you're talking about. Like there needs to be some sort of a gap, a bridge.
[00:56:03] Speaker A: Yeah, no, well, I've already Got ideas going through my head, going, like, because I got a community that I'm building. But I.
With Bon, how are you? Like, what is the structure compared to, like, I don't know if you're familiar, like CEO roundtable groups or other peer groups and stuff like that. So, like, what's the flavor? And like someone. When someone joins, like, how are you connecting and fostering all this energy in these. These people?
[00:56:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So first it's Vetted, number one. So it's not just like, join and come into a Slack channel. Anybody can join. I think we accept right now around 30% of the members that apply. So it's better, it's very vetted. And the number one thing that we look for is can Bond actually support what they're looking for? One, we're not just looking to like, just build. And then number two is, are they just authentic human beings? Like, and not that it's. It's just, are they actually looking for the same type of like, I'm going to be unfiltered. I'm going to shoot people straight. I'm going to like, actually show up and become like, get where we want to go together collectively.
So when they go through the Bond platform, it's not a Slack channel. It's actually a Bond community, like a Bond app, and they have the ability to find each other on a directory. We do small group sessions. We bring keynote speakers like Kim Chapel from Bobby. We do different courseworks, like different, like 0 to 1, which is people like we just talked about saying, I have this idea. I think I want to bring it to. But like walk me through for, from a legal perspective, how to do it from branding, from go to market, like all different pieces, anything even from like a personal branding course. So there's different courses, everything you can opt into, that's all on the digital layer. And so there's a lot of different pieces digitally that people can access from like a nationwide piece. But I think what's really unique about Bond is we also offer in person through retreats and so just allowing people to be able to. We have one coming up in Palm Springs. They're very what I think women like myself, like, like beautiful and luxury and like, not corporate at all. There's no name tags, like, at all.
And it's just something that allows us to be able to like, break bread together, clock out. Not everybody's mothers, but obviously if our age demographic is 34 to about 50 in that kind of age range, Cinemata are and just be able to just connect and, you know, do life together for a few days. And it creates this, like, band of brothers kind of, like, dynamic where we're like, I'm. I understand.
[00:58:36] Speaker A: You actually like each other, and I
[00:58:37] Speaker B: actually want to help. And, like, let's, like, get things done. And then at the same time, we also have somebody, like, we have human design coach that's coming in Palm Springs that'll actually walk us through, like, what is our unique human design and, like, how we. We're designed to lead and how we're designed to make decisions and how we show up in, you know, adversity. And so it's not just, let's clink glasses by the pool. The whole time. Everybody's actually walking away saying, all right, this is how I become a better leader, a better version of myself, even as a partner or a business owner or all the different pieces of whoever it is that I am. So we're perfectly balanced between this, like, professional layer and personal, so that it feels exactly what we are, which is just a whole human and authentic. So it doesn't feel you walk.
[00:59:25] Speaker A: I mean, it's. It's just real.
[00:59:27] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. What.
[00:59:29] Speaker A: I don't know what I. There was one of the things. Where is it real? I mean, like, I just find it. I love what you're doing. I love the progress. I also just, like, at the same time ago, I cannot believe how big of a vacuum there is for this stuff with the women leaders that you're coming across.
I mean, how isolated these people feel prior to this.
[00:59:55] Speaker B: I would say.
I would say very isolated, but I think everyone's just craving authenticity. So it's a little bit of both. One of those. Yeah, because it's like, yes, it's women feeling isolated. Of course, we have conversations about the fact that, like, there's no seats for women at the table, quite literally. This is still very much freaking happening, by the way. And, like, two seats over in the corner for the women, literally in rooms. Like, I've experienced this myself regularly, but, like, so that is very much still happening. The, like, the women dynamic. But, like, at the end of the day, even just humans themselves are just craving. Like, where is this authentic room we're talking about it right now? Around, like, where can I actually show up and be myself? Unfiltered. How am I really doing Type of conversations that I'm not being judged? You know, on the other end of the call,
[01:00:49] Speaker A: I think everyone in the country should go do sales for two years prior to doing anything.
[01:00:55] Speaker B: Hundred percent.
[01:00:57] Speaker A: I'm going to. Because I think this is like,
[01:01:02] Speaker B: people
[01:01:03] Speaker A: just need to realize it's not about you. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know what it is. Like, like, when you're in sales, you're just like, oh, wait, it's not me. Everyone is just busy.
Like, it's going to take 99 no's. And like, I mean, I, I, Meg, I remember this. I was 22 years old. It was my first year selling. I almost hit quota. I, I mean, I sold 290 or $285,000 worth of shit in five months. And the whole year's quota was 300.
And I was like, and I could, I didn't make President's club and I was the owner's kid. And all the dynamics associated with this. Well, the reason I didn't get it is because of this one client, I was going to win this big, huge hospital.
And they're like, why didn't you go with us? And they're like, because, Ryan.
It's like, oh.
They're like, we would have gone with you if Ryan wasn't our rep. And I was like, what? Yeah, I was like, I was too much. I was too much for the person.
But like, that right there was like, oh, this is how the world works. It's like, it ain't that big of a deal. Make a, make another phone call. And it just, it's a little bit of that on all sides. I think that just people are looking for, like, hey, life is different. Like, you just keep moving forward. And people are like, you know, when I look, when I talk to my clients, it's like, okay, I've got the, you ever heard of Dunbar's number?
[01:02:16] Speaker B: No.
[01:02:16] Speaker A: Oh, you would?
I'll text it to you, too. So Dunbar's numbers, this hierarchy of how many relationships we can manage. And it's like five and then like 15 and then like 35 and 50 and then a hundred and it says 150. Like, that's it. So I think that's really interesting of, like, how we manage our network. So you should think about kind of how to integrate that into bond. But my point is when I was talking, when I talk to. And I'll see if I can even pull up the, pull up the image for people that are listening in here. So why I think this is so fascinating is because maybe this is, maybe this is a, a relevant digression. The.
I actually have part of this in my training program because I think it's something we should think about, honestly. So check this out. So this right here is Dunbar's numbers. How many people we can manage. I actually like, I'm so freaking geeky. I have a Google sheet of my 150 people.
[01:03:08] Speaker B: Oh, that is so interesting.
[01:03:10] Speaker A: It's like a, like a CRM because it's like, here's the deal. Like, I can only have so many people pinned to the top of my text message.
And then like, I have to integrate my clients, who I make money from, plus my personal life and everything has to because time is the biggest constraint.
So when I think about this, it's like I, it's very deliberate. And like, and when I think about business owners or the network that we have, it's like, okay, like, I've got a client right now. We're helping him. I'm helping him interview CEOs. I'm like, you're going to talk to this person a lot.
Do you like them? Who cares if they're qualified? Like, so my thought is like, and I have this whole thing, like, hey, let's make sure that like the first handful of people that you're around every day you like and that you're willing to solve cool problems with and you're willing to do all these things because like, otherwise don't do it. And like I've got, I just, I use that as a, A lens. And I say that because when you are explaining like authenticity and what you're, what you're trying to bring out of your clients and your community, it. We're all should like kind of as we're thinking about it like this. I don't know what the, like, I'm curious, like, as your vetting process, like how to trying to think of the words like the filter, you know what I mean? Like, like, is it, is it gut instinct that you're using?
[01:04:32] Speaker B: It starts. Even your CEO or even the guy you're helping find a CEO, they have to be 100% themselves first. Like, it is so important how they will show up on those phone calls with that CEO is how they should interview first.
[01:04:58] Speaker A: Nope.
[01:04:59] Speaker B: Because he has too.
[01:05:00] Speaker A: But which, but yeah, I'm tracking. Yep.
[01:05:02] Speaker B: And like, because, like that sets the tone for like, because number one, like I always say you are in sales. You know this. They're interviewing you too, which I know is not a no brainer. But like, if you're relaxed and if you say here's the deal, like every single, every single interview or every single conversation, I always start with like, here's exactly like what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna Be completely unfiltered and authentic. Like, this is exactly who I am.
This, I promise you. This is literally me. And I want you to do the same. Which I know feels weird because you're interviewing for a CEO role and that's not normal. So right off the bat, they're gonna be like, this is different, because that's not normal.
[01:05:49] Speaker A: That's super cool.
[01:05:50] Speaker B: But, like, we are gonna spend a lot of time together.
And you're betting on me, and I'm betting on you. And this feels like a first date that we're about to, like, ink a matrimony together.
Right? Like, imagine starting it like that. And then they're like, oh, you're right, this is weird. So, like, immediately everybody's just, like, chilling at me anymore.
[01:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:06:17] Speaker B: And what ends up taking place is, like, now it's like, okay, so, like, let's chat. Like, then you get into it and what ends up happening is, like, you start to see, like, I actually really do want to chat with this person, or I actually really like this person and do. And like, they're also saying, I actually really like this person too.
Or they are so relaxed that they start.
We were like, whoa.
Really weird. Like, they overshared. And like, this same thing happened with me as the vice president when I would be interviewing people in the bay. Like, they were over sharing, like, oh, I was really hungover last night. And, like, I was like, you're not even gonna believe this. I actually, like, funny enough that you say this, I actually was like, I had to take an Uber here because I lost my keys. And like, I'm like, whoa.
Good to know, though, because you create this environment, and it's not that you're trying to trick them, you're just actually trying to get to know them.
And it's like, just. And it gives you this really clear picture of, like, who are you really? And who am I really? And, like, do we like each other? And is this a good fit? And all you're looking for is fit. You're not looking to hire someone.
You're not looking for that you're looking for, are they the right fit for this and am I the right fit for them? And when you own that, it's actually really great to say you're. You're not, like, bond isn't the right fit for you. Like, what you just said you're looking for. You want a ton of in person moments or you want.
You want to find your next board seat. Like, you want, like, all these things. I'm like, that is literally not going to happen here. So if I offered this to you, you'd be so annoyed with Bond, like, I'd be doing you a disservice. Same thing goes with your guy trying to find a CEO. When you get that guy, relax and he actually starts to be super real. Because the guy hiring is that, that it creates this environment where you're both looking for fit and it makes letting people down, like when you don't offer the job in any leadership role really easy because you're looking out for the other person and you're like, you were being dead honest with me because you stopped interviewing and you started talking to me and you said these things and that's literally what it's not like to work work here. And I would be doing you a disservice if I offered you this job. So I don't think you should. I'm not gonna offer it to you, period.
[01:08:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. Part of this, you mentioned it and I, I didn't mean to skip over because I pull up the, the Dunbar's number is. I'm really fascinated with.
I don't know how else to say it other than what it's like being a woman leader.
My wife. Let me give you some context because we'll give you where I'm coming at from, from this. My wife was the guy in our group of friends.
Like, I, I married the one girl in our group of guy friends and like, I helped her. Like, I think she was wearing a like cut off shirt and like basketball shorts when I met her. She is amazing. She's like, like she will spar and she will grind me to a pulp. And I love her. We've been together for 20 years. So she has like a visceral reaction against authoritative males.
So much so that like her and I have to dance all the time because I'm very much a male and so like it, like I've even said like, because, because of some of the, I think very toxic and messed up dynamics between masculine and feminine stuff going on. Like, her and I are just like perfect spouses. I don't, like, I, like, I just, I love her to death. And I got two daughters and I can be me, she can be her. We go clash, we go and everything is fixed like immediately. And like, so I see this of how, how amazing it can be when it works well.
And it makes me super sad watching how dysfunctional it is, especially in the work environment. And again, back to what I was saying. I've not been in the corporate environment. Right. Like so, like, yeah. So not only am I a male, but I'm also like turning 40 this year and like I can pretty much do what I want. I've got a bunch of grace. That's a lot of handicaps that I'm aware of.
And so watching her, watching how she, she's in a male dominated industry and like, and then watching her different careers that she's gone through, but also my clients who have, have female leaders and I have always. And also my last comment is I, I've also had quite a few women that I work with most of my life. I could just. I don't know if it's because of how I work with my wife, but like I'm even one of my buddies. Like, let me guess, you deal with all male. I'm like, no, I got quite a few women I work with. Like, I love it.
[01:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:10:54] Speaker A: And so like it.
All of that. I'm offering up to say I really am curious to hear how you're helping. Like, what's your thoughts on women leadership, your community, how you balance the dynamic of the healthiness versus like you guys rising up and doing what you need to do. There's a, there's, I think there's a concise question in here, but like is this landing at all?
[01:11:17] Speaker B: It is, it is, it's. Everybody is just in different environments. Like I, my best managers were guys, they, they just were. And I'll just say like my worst managers were women. So it's not. And I don't like that. Okay. To say that's just my reality, you know, and like it's not.
But then at the same time like every single woman that reported to me was so freaking kick ass and like amazing. Like, and so it's. I don't know if I have the same men versus women.
Like I viewpoint necessarily because just looking
[01:12:00] Speaker A: at through the authentic lens. And then the reason I was asking, because you got a women community so there could be a perspective there of
[01:12:06] Speaker B: like, and you should ask that. And I think a lot of people obviously, and that's why I think my co founder and I were like, we are solving.
We want to talk about like we love beautiful design and we want to go on a, like a retreat for women and we want to talk about things that women love to talk about. Like, like in like I struggled getting pregnant. Like my husband and I struggled getting pregnant. And so we built bond for us. Like my, like me and Parnian built bond for us. We are two women.
Like right off the bat. Right. So that's for women. And then at the same time, if you're gonna build something vetted, it does need to be for some thing, buddy.
[01:12:45] Speaker A: Yeah. You have to pick. You have to actually say yes to certain people.
[01:12:48] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. And so then I was like, I would love to mentor. I loved mentoring women. It was just like, naturally, who I enjoyed mentoring. And I connected, like, really well with women. I found myself regularly in rooms with men as leaders. My peers wanting to. We had an open rent, and they would always say, we should hire him. He has great followership. That was it. And I was like, well, hold on. She has great followership, great statistics, great this, great this, great this. And they were like, oh, you're right, you're right. We should actually give her the job. So I did have a couple light bulb moments in corporate where I was like, oh, my gosh, if I wasn't
[01:13:28] Speaker A: in this room, just blind to it,
[01:13:30] Speaker B: she literally wouldn't have gotten this promotion. And she 1000% and they all agreed was the one that should have gotten it. And so I do. I don't think they were intentionally not trying to promote her. I just think they were thinking about him.
And.
And maybe I was also thinking about her. Right. And so it's not even necessarily. Maybe it is a bias, but, like, there needs to be representative equal representation in rooms probably for that bias. Or like, I am naturally was mentoring her just like they're mentoring him and vice versa. And there should be some very intentional cross pollination so that we start to create a more of a well balanced perspective.
But if I flat out was not in that room, she literally would not have gotten that promotion. They would all have, like, if they were here, they'd be like, she's right.
And she's one of the by far best leaders at the company. Still to this day, like, one of the most important.
[01:14:26] Speaker A: That's awesome. That's awesome.
[01:14:27] Speaker B: So there are real life examples of it. Was I ever, like, actively, like, looking for female versus male? No, I honestly wasn't like, did I actively promote and find myself in rooms with more women than men? Yes. And I think it's just because I just enjoyed them more and just naturally worked better with them. And. And then with Bond, it just created this environment where I was like, I want to just mentor more women and I want to be around women. I think they're incredibly fascinating. I think we have great perspectives. I want to talk about infertility. I want to go on retreats. I want to, like, have this closed Door room where we can talk about stuff that guys would be like, I don't really want to talk about that. Like all that stuff. And so we didn't intentionally say like
[01:15:10] Speaker A: women, it's okay because you enjoy it. Right?
[01:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah. We built this because we were like, we want it. Like, we want this room of authentic conversations that we can talk about that. I don't think I would bring this up if like you were in the. Sorry.
[01:15:23] Speaker A: On your five years of IVF and like. But also good. Like my wife wanted to start. She had the blog and all I.
What is super cool to hear is like what I'm taking away from it is it is just a people thing. And like in why I asked the question the way I did is I do think that way.
And sometimes I like the narrative is I should be not thinking that way as well. It's just a people person. Like, like, I don't. I am truly blind. Like, I just want to. Like, it's just all like, are you authentic? Are you a good person? Like, do you have like intrinsic motivation? Like, I don't care who you are. So like. And then like, it really shouldn't be any more complicated than that. And that's why I was just fascinating to. I wanted to hear, like, what is it like being a woman as you're building women leadership? I mean like, you have like really successful people and I was just curious.
[01:16:15] Speaker B: You're thinking about it different. Like, and you, you are an anomaly. Like most.
There's a reason I was the only one in the room and that's I think where it's like there is still very much a. A huge problem going on where it's like, I shouldn't have been the only one in the room to even like bring that up, you know. And I think that that's the part that is a, a whole segment of course like on its own. So I don't want to like diminish the. There is a serious like, if you just look in the corporate sector, it is everywhere that like women are literally just yesterday a full blown table full of men and two chairs sitting over. Everyone's the same level, the same level.
And the men sit in like the women go sit over in the corner. Like they're all the same title. Like they should be sitting at the table, you know, and like, like, like literally, yeah, like this is 2025, you know, like this is crazy. So it is 1000% still happening. I'm not downplaying that. I just think my answer to why we ultimately Built bond was not to be like this like feminist movement. We wouldn't have like this like swell of that.
But this is without a doubt like a very necessary and very real still very, very bizarrely real. Bizarre is the number one word there. Like wild. That this is still very much a real thing. So you have daughters. Like just continue. Your wife sounds like a badass. So just continue.
[01:17:46] Speaker A: I am full of very, very strong willed women.
[01:17:50] Speaker B: Literally do anything. They're totally capable of whatever they want, want to do and remind them, like take a freaking seat at the table.
[01:17:57] Speaker A: Oh, I, I am very worried about the males that they're going to come across because they're gonna have to be some serious men who are capable of being okay.
[01:18:09] Speaker B: It sounds like you're a good example of that.
[01:18:12] Speaker A: We'll see.
Effort is what it takes. But I appreciate that you sharing that because I think it's just interesting dynamics that like, you know, back to your whole point of like, like having these conversations where like it's not black and white but also like, you know, it.
I, I have so many takeaways. I have multiple pages of notes here. Maggie, this has been so fun. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you feel like we missed?
[01:18:37] Speaker B: Oh, no. I mean we could go much deeper. I want to meet your wife. That's I think the last, the last thing. I'd love to have a conversation with her, but no, this was wonderful. Thank you for the time.
[01:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that we should figure out or brainstorm like I have this pool of companies that. And I'm going to continue growing my community of owner operators and they're all ages, all different types, they are starving like starving for leaders. And it's in like crazy opportunities where like phantom stock, long term, the long term equity plays. I mean like there's just so many opportunities if we can find the leaders that are capable. And like these are like, I mean these companies. I mean like the recruiters, I mean, shit, you're looking at 80 to 100k in a recruiting fee to find someone that's 250. And you're just like, Jesus. Like this is like, I mean, yes, it's. I mean I've got some recruiters that I know that are really good. But like there's gotta be a more effective way to get people like commingling to get to know each other and stuff like that. Like this is, it just seems insane. So I think we should. And keep the conversations going.
[01:19:42] Speaker B: Yes. I love it. Bridge connecting and bridging the gap is like is currency for me. We just talked about so I love
[01:19:50] Speaker A: that we will put bond the website in the show notes along with your LinkedIn. Anything else you want to leave the listeners with?
[01:19:57] Speaker B: No, that's it. Thank you so much for listening. This was great.
[01:20:00] Speaker A: I love it.
[01:20:06] Speaker B: Sa.
