Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Independence by Design podcast where we discuss what it means to be a business owner and ways to get unstuck from the day to day so we can design a business that gives us a life of independence.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: All right, Ryan, so today's episode we're talking about executive compensation. It's a follow on to last week's episode where we started the conversation talking about module eight. We were talking more high level and today's where we're going to start diving more into the weeds and I hear that you have a story to share with me. So I'm excited to get going today.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm really pumped about this because as I was just saying, I, I installed a lot of what we're going to talk about at the family business and I've watched other people put this in and if we're building again just building off of last week so you don't have to recover that all go listen to last week. If you aren't aren't familiar with the foundation. But getting our executives to actually own outcomes is the, is the point. Like that's what I think we're marching towards. Like we want to make sure that people don't land monkeys on our back. They actually take them and they get compensated fairly for owning those outcomes and tying those outcomes into the owner's goals.
So the, the story I want to tell you and then Kimura have to, well you'll have to keep me on track of like how to how we make sure that we identify the three functional seats, what those are because. Well just a quick note on that. The CRO, CFO and co. That's what we're talking about here. You may or may not have those. We're going to talk about owning those outcomes because it's three buckets of the income statement. But I want to go back to the story. So I had a service based business where we sold stuff and serviced it and there's a lot of people that I think listen in that are either a service based business or the distribution and kind of manufacturing all the, the, the mix. But selling something and then servicing it. You have this natural that these natural enemies of sales and service.
Did you ever experience that at itr? I don't know if you guys ever had the that level where like what did we sell and then we have to deliver it and they're always those, those functions are always arguing about whether it was a good deal anti sales department versus the sales departments who always under, you know, underbidding everything.
You understand the dynamics I'm talking about
[00:02:18] Speaker B: for sure, like because we always call it sales and production. So I think that, and I think it's the same across the board in all the different businesses like you mentioned. Like you have your sales team, then you have those responsible for producing and
[00:02:29] Speaker A: very, very infrequently do they agree on anything. And so you know, we've talked about in your CRO episodes like having the total alignment between sales and then operations for delivery. So we have the revenue bucket, the operations bucket, which is gross margins, and then the CFO bucket which is the admin, net income normalized, ebitda, et cetera. So I had, his name was Pat Zki and then Clint and so these, it was sales and service and like every, just a constant fight. And it was all of our technicians bitching about the sales rep that over just all the time. So what we ended up doing is tying all three executives, sales, service. So that's my ops coo. Think about the margins and then the cfo. So all three of the executives together on an annual comp plan where 50% of their variable comp was tied to their department, 25% was tied to each of the other departments.
And we'll unpack this. So like effectively, if you were the CRO, you would have 25% of your. So 50% of your comp would be tied to your department and Your revenue goals, 25% of your comp would be tied to the margins at the target margins and then 25% of your comp will be tied to the net operating income or normalized ebitda, whatever the admin one is. So now you're literally all, I call it the, would it be the six legged race because you're all tied together.
And I walked in and normally like I was the mediator and the referee between like what's the pricing going out for this contract? Right? Like everyone's arguing, everyone's over, you know, complaining about what the balance is. Well, I walked in one morning at seven and Clint and Pat were in Clint's office doing a deal proposal pricing together.
I was like yay. I was like 26 at the time. I'm like, I don't have to be adult daycare anymore. Like they're working on this together towards the outcome. That's tied to the ownership goals, tied to the income statement. That's objective. So it was just like watching that happen in real time. It was like, oh my God, like this is possible. It's like, you don't have to have that. I find that the arguing is usually warranted and now it's like, okay, well now if it's all tied together and everybody's compass tied together and it's tied to the company goals and everybody understands the trade offs then like people will work things out and they'll take the monkeys and they'll own the outcomes.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. It's a really good. I, I have not seen that in practice with the different businesses that I've, that I've worked with. I have not seen that kind of a comp plan in place. It's a really good idea.
You wanted to make sure we brought up the leader, the leadership module too. Module 7. Do you want to. Where does that fit in the storyline?
[00:05:28] Speaker A: So everybody that's listening in here probably has a different structure at their leadership team. You and I are going to be talking about that when we get to module seven. There's a lot of material that we've developed around there from functional seat descriptions and assessments etc. But I think everybody listening and has heard me hopefully say enough times now, like we have the CEO who's responsible for the income statement which is the operations tied to ownership's goals of cash flow evaluation.
The CEO is supposed to get the company to the company, the ownership's goals through the people at the top. Not a to do list.
Like that's what a c. A CEO does not have a task list. They have to delegate and manage the people at the top which are the three functions.
Revenue margins and then finance, which is SGA and cash which is the Croat COO managing margins and then the CFO managing cash and the financials.
Those are the three buckets of the income statement.
So that guy, you know, I had Nick Bradley on, we were talking about private equity and I walked through this and he's like, well yeah, I'm like, well Nick, it's not that obvious to everybody else. It's not been in private equity for 20 years. And so it's an objective way to say whether you're lemonade stand or your apple, you have three buckets of the income statement so let's use those as the top level KPIs.
And so everybody might be in a different path of like, okay, I've got a sales manager that should be a CRO at some point or I've got a controller that should be a cfo. Okay, like understood. There's a whole roadmap and a whole like intelligent way to, an intentional way to get from point A to point B with that person.
But I think what we want to do today as we unpack the annual comp is talk about it from just a pure function seat to say, okay, like we have three major functions that have three KPIs, revenue margins and the, the cash positions on, on the income statement. Let's focus on if we can understand what good looks like for how these people should be compensated for owning the outcome that's not subjective but objective, then we can, like, I think that, and I want your comments on this. Like, I think if we start there, which is why this is this module that we're talking about, we can then like back into like the leadership to say, okay, what's the road map of how to get Lisa the controller up to the cfo?
Can she do it? Is she not capable? But now we're not wondering what good looks like from a KPI perspective. It's like very knowable and we can understand what the pay would be. So I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but I just feel like we should stick, stick to the function idea and then people can then project their own situation, their own people, their own numbers onto this concept that we're just trying to provide the, the levers that are available and then you can pull all these levers depending on what you want.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: No, I like it. That makes sense to me. Just focus on the function. So where do you want to start with that?
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Well, okay, if you're thinking about this like a listener in how do. How would you want to start unpacking? Like, what do we mean by the story I just told? Like, how do we get there? So, like, why don't you get me so I don't just word vomit on everybody Because I, I don't want to, I don't want to draw on the iPad like I normally do because I want this to be something that people can listen to and if not, come to the workshop if you want to actually dive into this. But how do you want to unlike. What are your thoughts about how to, how to unpack it?
[00:08:45] Speaker B: I think just general curiosity for folks listening in. So you gave the story of how you divvied up the, the motive and tied everybody together to equally motivate them. But I guess my brain goes to a traditional like base plus bonus type model. And so like, the common ways that I've seen being used across businesses is you look at market rates to get an understanding of what base is and then you look at what normal looks like in terms of anything above and beyond thereafter after the base and it's usually held within the HR department's responsibility to go out and do said research and come back and pitch to the CEO and say we need to hire a CFO or so and so is going to be our next cfo and here's how we should be compensating he or she. So I guess that's my question is how do we go to from something that seems so basic but market researched to a more what could structure as like complex but it is much more structured.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: I love it. Okay, so a couple entry points into this idea and these are just loose numbers from the case study in the IBD academy. So and from a lot of our experience, my experience from these size companies being like anywhere between like 10 million and 50 million. Let's take like the 30ish million as kind of like the bell curve. Again everybody can like you could be a $3 million company or 3, 300, it doesn't matter. We want to start first from that net, the normalized net operating income target.
So I got a $220 or $20 million company, let's say it's 3 million bucks. So I'm just going to give an entry point to say okay, we're going to share 10% of that which is 300 grand.
And I think the way I like to think about this game is like the top down versus the bottom up. So we're going to do both just like you and I do budgeting. We're going to start with the top down. Like what do we want from like the top top meaning 20 million. 3 million.
3 million and normalized net operating income. Okay, 10%, 300 grand.
The question is, is that enough? How many executives do you have? You know, you just kind of go, that's what I mean by the top down. And then yours would be like bottom up being this base salary variable comp. In order to get Kim, I need 300 grand. Well, okay, we're going to try and figure out how to shuffle those two together. Does that make sense? Just kind of like the two different entry points, bottom up, top down. And then like you and I can do a lot more podcasts on.
If we're going to assume that someone is going to own these outcomes, I don't give a what their title is. Be honest.
Someone's responsible for revenue margins and, and finance.
I've seen anywhere between 200 to 300 base plus variable depending on the size of company, the complexity, the where you are in the country.
I mean like people like you start throwing actual titles of CRO, COO and cfo. I mean, like, it's top range of that.
I think that you and I have seen a lot more where someone's doing the work and they're owning the outcome, but like their title's not that.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: And I think what's really important for, because I, I, as I was getting ready for this podcast, I was like, I know I, I know our clients are gonna be listening to this and their executive team. So we can't F up everybody's expectations here.
The company's cash flow and the owner's goals are the constraint.
So just because someone at a $8 million company is doing the CRO work does not mean that they deserve 200, 250 base. I just want to be abundantly clear on that because the company needs to grow, which is why we're going to talk about the comp plan.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: Does that make sense? Like I, because I just wanted to be like ma. Massive asterisks here. Like, the whole point is to sync everybody up together where everybody feels like they're treated fairly. If you want more money, go work for a bigger company and take on all the stress or help grow the company and, you know, participate in the upside annually and then the long term comp plan and align yourself with the company and the owner.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: No, I wholeheartedly agree with that. I mean, I can even equate my own journey to, to that situation. Right. Like it hired as the very first salesperson. Pay was around 30 grand a year, base salary.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: But I was responsible for bringing in all the money. Right. Fast forward, I end up becoming director of sales. Pay goes up to say 100k, but I still have the same responsibilities. I'm still responsible for bringing in the money and then I end up moving up to VP of sales. Same thing. Maybe it goes up to 200k, but I'm still responsible for bringing in the money. But I was growing the business as it was going and therefore I was maintained to be incentivized along the way and I could grow as it grew.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: I think it's, I hope this is very helpful for everybody listening because we want our clients and the executive team to be listening to this to say, and then the question is, does everybody's needs align? Do everybody's needs align? Like, do you like the company? The culture? Are you willing to have the timeline? Everybody should have their time, cash flow, wealth, scorecards that sync up together.
Okay, so back to then, your question about base pay versus variable. And I think we'll use Some of these numbers high level, I don't have a calculator in front of me. So just again, that's my disclosure. Let's take 300 grand on that 3 million in net operating income.
Let's say we have a divvy up roughly 20 to 25% for the CEO, 15 to 18 ish percent for the three executives, and then a 25% company wide and then a reserve discretionary of five. That leaves around 50 grand per the three executives. So that's why I just wanted to have some round numbers. So let's say it's 50 grand and this is the top down. Right. So like I'm going to. This is the top down. So. Okay, Kim, you're the CRO.
Your variable comp is 50k based on the threshold of revenue, gross margins, net operating income, 10% of that.
Your percent of the 10% leaves us 50k for you.
That's different than Kim's a badass. I want 100 grand bonus.
Hence negotiations in the, you know, that's the bottom up.
Okay, so let's say just for ease of use for all these, we have 200k as a base pay for all three of these people.
Okay. CRO, CFO and COO.
Let's say we got a $50,000 variable.
Okay. So that $50,000 variable then is tight because we kind of have them both, both synced up then. So we now then have so of 50 grand each.
I'm going to write these down so I don't mess up the numbers. We have then the ability to say, okay Kim, I'm just going to keep using you so that way I don't lose track of anything.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: So you get 200 grand base. We want to give you a $50,000 annual executive compensation plan.
This is different than if you're a sales manager and leader and you have actual commission structures.
I want to make sure that. Because like literally there would be different line items in the P and L. Right. Like you would have like your commission structure of whatever you're doing for deals and managing your reps in your territories or whatever it is. So this is 50 grand just for your executive compensation.
Okay. We're going to say, okay, well we're going to give you 25 grand which is 50% of that 50 tied to your KPIs. As a executive, you and I are going to talk about predictable revenue. We've done a bunch of that already in the last six months, but we're going to bringing it up later on this year.
And it would be tied to your actual numbers of budget, to actual revenue. We might add the functional revenue or the predictable revenue score. That's why you and I created that assessment. And then there's a leadership assessment. So we have very objective KPIs, and that functional assessment is tied to developing the strategic plan, the ideal client profile, your womb to tomb user journey, and client acquisition costs. So, like, we're literally saying, kim, these are your freaking responsibilities. These are your KPIs, tied to predictable revenue and the milestones and predictable revenue and budget to actual.
So it's like your leadership assessment, like how you're developing yourself, how you're developing the function, and whether you're hitting your numbers.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: And we've got those resources for all these. So those three things, you hit those, you get 25 grand, which is 50% of your 50.
Now, we want you to then get 12 and a half thousand dollars if Ryan the COO, hits the margins on track, off track.
And what I would want, and I really want the audience to hear your reactions to this because, like, you wouldn't want to be comped on my leadership growth or, or my functional assessment growth. You just want to be Compton. Did we hit the margins?
And then if we have, let's say it's Pat Hobby as the cfo and we have to hit net operating income and normalize EBITDA. So you would get 12 and a half grand if I as a COO, hit my numbers, and if Pat hit his numbers, so then you, Kim, it's like, okay, I got my 200 gram base.
I can control this, and I get 25k. So then even if Ryan and Pat blow their lives up, I'm like, I did my job. Everybody, like, that's what we're trying to. We're trying to align everybody's incentives. And you say, well, you're going to. Hopefully, you and I are going to be working together. So we sell profitable deals. We're doing that margin calculator and analyzing the margins and analyzing deals and then the funnel together. And then we got to make sure that you're not sending everybody to trade shows and you're not paying, you know, sending everybody to trips, because that would hit sga.
So we literally have everybody locked in together. And then me as a COO, I would get 25 grand if I hit the operational functional assessment for like, utilization and billing efficiencies or delivery time or net promoter score or whatever the hell. My operational assessment is my leadership roadmap of my development and the gross Margin budget actual.
So I would hit that for 25 grand. And then if Kim blows the revenue, it's like was my deal.
And then if, you know, if we have, you know, issues on the sgna, we're just trying to get everybody appropriately compensated for what they can control first.
I, as the CEO owner, want to make sure I don't have to deal with this. You guys are all highly paid people. Figure it the hell out. And if not, you're freaking fired.
And I say that like with a little bit of caveat, like it jokingly but not like if the CEOs got that in place, they can focus on the person and quit talking about the stupid mechanical all day, every day, repeat and repeat. When it's like, I just want to know, Kim, what do you need?
How are you doing? What's in your way? How are your people and focusing on the people. Because all the mechanical stuff is all aligned, all clear, all objective. The CEO has the higher ability to do their job. And one of our clients literally didn't hire a CEO because we have all this in place. And he's like, I can do this job now. This is super fun. Got the right people, right KPIs. So it's like this total inversion of your monkeys are your monkeys. You get paid for them appropriately.
Last comment is we can have a sliding scale, a multiplier up in a multiplier down.
So you know, all of that would be budget to actual net 300, you know, the 3 million in net operating income. But if we exceed that for every division too, if sales exceeds, you can have the multiplier in each of those levers.
So you could have like a 1.1, 1.2 multiplier on the way up, 0.9, 0.8 and like 0, 8.7 is usually like, then you don't get it.
But that could be for all three. So it's not just you. It's like literally on all three of those KPIs.
Am I losing you? How am I doing?
[00:21:05] Speaker B: No, you're not losing me at all. I'm keeping right up with you. And I really love the concept. So you've done this, you said yourself and your own business and then you've helped other clients. What are some use cases or examples or success stories or aha moments that you've seen people have as they implement something like this.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Just so much more peaceful.
Like you don't have to go in these meetings arguing about like who's doing what, whose fault is what, what data is what like, what should we be focusing on? I, I think my example, like, I literally at these are my words. But at the age of 26, I worked myself out of that job because I have three adults now doing their job. I'm like, the mindset, I think is, I mean, I don't know if I've said this enough, given the podcast, like, my mindset. I'm like, I never wanted to do the work, like, as a family business. Like, I, like, there's no ego here. I don't want to do this shit. I want to go to the cabin.
So, like, quit complaining to me, do your job. And so like this whole like, mindset of like, I never wanted to be the one that answered all the questions. I never wanted to be the head honcho. I was just like, I'm doing all this so I can have freedom. I'm doing this so you call me while I'm at the cabin. And so I watched that happen personally.
And it wasn't just like, I think the, the caveat is it's not just like, I don't know if you've had this where you implement a new comp plan. There's like this, you know, like high from people getting home from camp and then it goes away and then it goes back to normal.
That's not what we want. We want this to be self sustaining over a long period of time because, like, I truly put all of the responsibility onto you. So that was. And I think the two stories I told were my favorite of my own experience. And then that client who literally was going to hire a half a million dollar CEO and he was like, why would I do that? This is a nice job. Now I'm willing to be the CEO for a heck of a lot longer because it's fun now.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: It's crazy how to think putting the right compensation packages into place turn someone's life around to such a degree, like, gives them that freedom that you're talking about and gives them that satisfaction and enjoyment in that role.
Like, I don't think many people would stop to think about it that way, right? Like, if I put a better compensation structure in a place that's tied to my ownership goals and it properly motivates and it syncs the leadership team across my company, poof, I'm going to have a better work life, balance and experience in this company. I don't think that's a thought that really goes across a lot of people's minds. At least I haven't come across it.
[00:23:44] Speaker A: I think it actually, I Think my experience is that I have a lot of people that I've encountered that think that everyone just does it ass backwards. Like the beginning story that I told you on last week's episode, which is like, I'm willing to pay a shitload of money to Kim to make all of my problems go away.
And then there's this like blind, like, I'm gonna either overcompensate from money, I'm going to give you a bunch of money to hopefully make this all go away, or I'm going to like befriend you and we're really good friends and this is all going to go away.
Neither of which without all of the KPIs completely through, lined all the way. Like to the three statement model, to the owner's cash flow, to working capital, to the valuation. Like, it's all made up bullshit. Unless you do that. So then what happens is it's like the insurance person that we talked about or it's like the overpayment, like, oh my God, did we overpay people to do this?
To say to do this is like overpay. Like, oh my God, we were overpaying our executive because it was just like, please make our problems go away. And then it's resentment and then it's over bloated salaries and then they're still not owning the outcomes. And then all the shit rolls back downhill to the CEO owner because it's like, they gave you all this money and you're a really nice person. Why aren't you doing your job?
So I think that there is the desire to pay to buy people's time back.
And there's so much wounds and resentment that gets built up because you and I keep talking about like, there's like an actual order to this.
You know what I mean? Like you, you have to build it these in this order. Otherwise you don't have the owner's KPIs with like, like, if Kim sells all this stuff and does all these things and so does the COO and the CFO, do I as the owner have 150 grand in cash to give you and those two people?
While I have the right amount of inventory, I have a bunch of receivables, I got a freaking tax bill, I got my debt and I want 40 grand a month in cash.
No one can answer that question. So then they're like, oh, I hope it works.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: No, I think that's a really good point that you brought up too, is that I guess looking through it, through that Frame I, I've seen many times people throwing money into a compensation program trying to incentivize. But to your point, it was just like it's a shot in the dark. They don't know what they're doing or why they're doing it. They're just trying to hope to motivate or keep a really good employee. And so that's why, you know, I'm very data driven person. That's why I really like this because it's all just tied back to data points and goals and it's all measurable and it gives the system of accountability
[00:26:33] Speaker A: and like let's go to, let's see, someone's listening. Oh my God, I don't have, I mean you're talking 600k at the top plus I mean like I, trust me, I, I'm watching, I've watched people do the back of the napkin math. I'm like okay, take a deep breath.
It doesn't change the game. You could have a hundred dollar a month lemonade stand and you have revenue, cost of goods and nothing like it's like the outcomes and the KPIs are still there. The question is how are we going to deal with this from the number perspective as well as the person.
Like if you have a person that like, I mean I need 250 grand, well, good luck somewhere else. Like let's talk about a couple like cool things that I've helped and participated in. Is we'll use you as an example again. Just so let's say you wanted to have that 250 but we can't because we don't have the money right now. We say okay, well Kim, if we had the entire thing outlined with clear KPIs and a clear objective roadmap and we said okay Kim, it's 90 grand base, but now I'm going to show you exactly what you have to do to make 2:50.
How would you react to that? Like, like what would be like if you just think about all the CROs that you know and all the, like you put yourself in that mindset. Like what would be the, some of the questions that you would need answered for you to determine whether that was a right fit or not. Like if I said to you, okay, there's a possibility of 2:50 here, but it's a $90,000 base instead of a $200,000 base.
What are questions that you would want answered if you were the CRO responsible for that 250 or like how possible
[00:28:15] Speaker B: that 250 is well, obviously I don't want to know what the KPIs are. Like what is the measurement that I'm being measured against that's going to what is the distribution of the funds? Like how frequent are those other funds given?
I would want to know like who else is involved that can impact the KPI results? What is their history with the company? How long have they been there? What have their historical results been? Like how successful have they been?
I mean at first I thought you're going to ask me like what my initial reaction is. And personally I know that my reaction, I'd have a hard time with that because I always liked having a higher base and I never liked being commission based. But that's just a personal preference. I know plenty of people that like to be commission versus higher base. So. But, so those are some of my quick 3 second reactions.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: And I think everybody would like to have a higher base. I mean like number one way to neuter a sales reps determination is give them a high base. My dad always said, you know how to have the best sales force is a salesforce in debt.
Like just like, oh my God, yeah, like we wouldn't go up and sell because your life depends on it. The way that I was trying to frame it up is.
And you were, you were going that direction with your line of questioning. It's like, okay, are their products and services, like are they high quality? Is the market actually able to absorb that kind of demand? Can we deliver that kind of demand?
Are we going to blow up the ship if that happens? Because the question that I would want to answer is like is that even possible?
Right? Is that even possible? Because like I, what I like, I mean this is this part of the conversation disproportionately tied to sales reps who have or a CRO were like brute, like brute force. Their total effort is driving the bus, right? So like people that want to own their outcome and get paid for it, if that was me, I'd be like, okay, well is this possible?
What are all of the things that would blow up that plan for me being able to do that? Because we could have a multiplier higher, you know what I mean? Like if we grow that fast and like we know that like hey, if Kim makes 400 grand, it ripples all the way through the cash flow statement. Everybody makes more money as long as the products and the services and the company can actually maintain that kind of growth.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Right?
[00:30:34] Speaker A: So that's what I would want to know because I was bringing it up because they're really interesting things that we can do to incentivize people that want to stick with the culture, move places, be with the right people, solving the right cool problems. It's not all about money. And like when I was scaling my old business, the one that shall not Be named because for a lot of reasons there's really interesting ways. We got CFOs to come on board because they were 200 grand base.
And like I was like, oh my God, that's $18,756 a month or whatever the hell it was. Like, it was like very close to like this is a lot of money, I need capacity. Well, it was like, hey, is there a way to have a ramp up? But then we are kicking in like every single dollar over this threshold goes to you. I have another client where we did to get on boarded with a new, new executive.
Are you familiar with non recoverable draws?
[00:31:29] Speaker B: No.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: So there's things called recoverable draws and non recoverable. So recoverable draws are like Kim comes to me and says, hey, I want to be your CRO.
I need 250 because it's really expensive. The K shaped economy. Alan and Kim keep talking about it. So we say, okay Kim, you can have 250, 200 is your base.
But what we're going to do is so recoverable versus non recoverable is like each quarter or throughout the year we have a true up. And if you don't hate your, if you don't hate. So recoverable means like I'm taking it out of your future pay. Yeah, non recoverable means I'm locking this in and I'm giving it to you. But everything you're selling goes against that 50K.
So you're absorbing that 50K. That's just, it's, it's me as the CEO owner's risk to say, okay, like we're going to have that 50k outlay to Kim.
But like I'm betting on Kim being able to work long term on this.
You're saying okay, like I, I just needed that love, lifestyle, consistency and you know that it's going to take 12 months to get new customer, you know, up, you know, integrate into the company, the culture, all that stuff. And then after year one it goes back to the 200 base. I mean it's still the 200 base but we have the inflate or the price of inflation and salary increase is tied to the 200, not the 250.
And then essentially just saying non recoverable base is just allowing that ramp up to happen without committing to a, a large base.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So you were suggesting, like that's a way of onboarding this higher end roles when the company itself doesn't feel like they could really take on that additional expense.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: There's just all these different ways. And it doesn't have to be 200. It could be literally a hundred grand. And I want to give you a hundred grand non recoverable draw, essentially saying, like, we're just. You and I came around the same page that in six months, 12 months, we're going down to 100 grand base, but we're giving you a chance to ramp up here.
Recoverable, non recoverable. All this is doing is like what I have totally experienced with clear numbers and a clear goal. Like, we can skin this cat a thousand different ways, but the outcomes have to happen. And we're trying to figure out who and what or who can we share these outcomes with and who's going to own them with objective KPIs. And then we all just have to be like, well, I believe it.
Like, I believe the revenue plan and the strap plan, or I believe the operational and production plan. Like, or we don't. And if we don't, then we're just all lying to ourselves about these numbers. So it's about having all that, that data and that framework to say, okay, Kim, like if I. Because, like, we all find that really awesome executive and we want to bring them on.
And then we say, well, how do we do this? I mean, I would say that what you and I are doing together right now is a pretty creative. Right. Because I couldn't hire you.
Do you think it worked? I sucked you in. I was like, here you go.
Like, incentives work, right? I mean, if they're all aligned. And I just know that, like, we're trying to think about the fourth order effect to avoid resentment and to avoid overpay or underpay, which is what creates that resentment and the workload that's tied to the numbers.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: So how does somebody like, get started? Because there does seem like there's a lot of different options. So like, what is your recommendation if somebody's like, all right, Ryan, starting to buy in with the thought process.
Where do I start?
[00:35:04] Speaker A: I'll go through. And you keep me on track here on like how to. Like, it's just a. I would have a series of questions that if it was me, I would want answered. So then the, the first thing is like, okay, well how do I answer those questions? Get the Data.
If it were me, I'd be like, okay, well what's my, what's my goal? Time, cash flow, wealth, the five year.
Am I solving for cash flow right now or solving for time buyback?
I will overpay, but that's eating into cash.
I mean if we have the right people that we're bringing on, we're going to grow the wealth part of this. Like we're going like we're. The wealth should come if we have this total alignment. So it really becomes a cash flow and time situation.
Like when I said to you, I'm like, hey, if we can divide and conquer our time, I know we can make a shitload more money.
I think those were my exact words.
Good sales pitch, very quantifiable, very, very objective. Like it's the oppos of everything I'm talking about. It's like, like what does that mean? Your definition, the definition of shitload is different than mine maybe, but okay, so it, it's how much time do we want to buy back to own an outcome so we can grow the pie bigger.
So I would start from my goals first. Say okay, like what are the goals of my goal? My goals and then the company's potential if we had the right people doing this and then what kind of risk am I willing to take financially? And then there's also the cultural risk. I would want to know, okay, well is there a way to test this out? You know, fractional leadership before full time? Or like, I mean you take a recruiter and they got a very large fee that comes and like, and then so you could be paying for a toxic hire. No one wants that. We've all had that experience. So I would think, I mean it's just these series of questions that I would want to know, like, what's the impact of all of this stuff from the pay to, to the culture to the, to the forecast. I mean I would want a 12 month ground up annual budget with all three statements to know, hey, like we've got a mutual client or we literally it was you and the CFO and the owner CEO did the budget in Q4 last year we had this whole budget built up for this year. We've been doing on track, off track meetings and we had a $200,000 executive in the income statement in the middle of June.
So we know we can absorb 18. When I say absorb the growth plan and everything can account for 18 grand a month in June. So the whole.
And that's where I think like there's like, I Would want to know, okay, if I do that, how much can I afford for base? How much does needs to be variable?
And so like, let's say I had that whole plan and some new person comes into my life.
Okay, There are more than I thought.
Okay.
And like one of the conversations I had with this client of ours, I'm like, well, do you want the 30 to 40 grand a month? No, I'll take 20 to hire that person.
You know what I mean? Like, so like now we have a very quantifiable trade off. Like, if this person comes in, I'm willing to pay a little bit more because I know that my life gets better. You mean? So it's like having that total through line to say, to answer the questions that you've been proposing of base pay versus variable, non recoverable, recoverable tied to what? KPIs tied to the forecast, you know, I mean, it's just having complete visibility.
So that way, like we're like sending the. I mean, like one of my other clients, like, say, I don't know, man, like what we have done with the last couple hires, it's like, this is not repeatable. Like, we're doing like universal dances with the energy of the universe. And then people are popping into our life. We're like, I don't know how to recreate that situation.
But like, it's because we're like manifesting like we are looking for this person. And have you ever seen the whole like looking for yellow trucks and you've never seen a yellow truck, but then you get a yellow truck and then like they're everywhere. Yeah, and I think that's what we're trying to do is like, if we have the whole structure put together, we're just on this hunt for the person and then we know how to take that person, their dynamics, and then reconcile it against objective numbers. Is that answering any of your question? How do you get started? I mean, it's a lot of thinking, but at the end of the day, we just want to search it did
[00:39:22] Speaker B: again, pretending that I'm a listener in the audience. I would be thinking, that's a lot of what if I don't have a three statement model? What if I don't have a budget? What if I don't have a forecast?
But I know I really need CRO, cfo, whatever the role may be, COO because of X, Y and Z.
Like, could, is there any world where they can do a smaller test case or should they really truly start with building out?
I mean, because to your point, if you don't know your goals and you don't know if something's worthwhile, but so just cur. I'm sure there's probably people.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Let me ask you, because our boardroom blueprint, the 90 Day Program, exists for a reason.
What are your. What do you. What do you think the risks are of not having a financial model and having your goals while trying to hire someone?
[00:40:14] Speaker B: I think it's worth the time to put the materials together so that way you're making the right decision. That's an expensive hire. That's an expensive position. And if you can't spend, call it 5 hours to build out the materials that you need, then that's a bigger problem in my mind.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Five hours. Oh, you're good.
[00:40:32] Speaker B: Well, if they're in the boardroom blueprint.
There you go.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: Then it's five hours.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Not on their own, but you feel like we. They have all these tools in the boardroom blueprint to get them started and get them everything that they need. So it's possible to invest some upfront time and energy to getting it done the right way.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Go down a slight.
Related. But it's a rabbit hole, because I think this is an interesting parallel analogy to what I think people can relate to right now.
So what you just asked is how do we get started?
And when. I'm kind of thinking about if. Okay, if we're listening in, get started on what? Well, the question that I think everybody we're trying to answer is, should I hire this person because I want to do less work and have someone else own the outcome without everybody fighting, without someone bitching about them not making enough money, them blowing up my culture, them pissing off my clients. And, like, I want this to be like a shoe in without effing up my whole life.
And if that's the case, I'm willing to probably put a bigger risk and a gamble on that. Like, that's like. I think that's like, the big thing that everybody's trying to answer. And then the question is, should I hire this person or not? Should I pay them this or not? Like, I mean, like, that's really all we're trying to do is answer the question.
And, like, what we spent this entire time talking about is, like, how the hell do we get the context to make the. The decision, right? What's the ripple effect of this? And how about that? And what did I need this data? It's all this.
Every single person right now could take this transcript. And by the way, I suggest that you take all 500 transcripts of IBD and plug it into AI and you're like, oh, wait a second, it can't digest 500 transcripts of an hour and a half apiece. So then I have to parse them all up and put them in the database. Like, like, good luck getting the answer to this question without doing the work.
Like it's freaking impossible. It's like, well, maybe I'll have a project in GPT or quad. And it's like, next thing you know you have 10 different documents. What kind of documents should I put in there? Should I put my strap plan? Should put my, you know, I mean like, like even with AI, good luck.
Like you need so much actual experience and actual understanding to actually make a good decision.
I don't know if there's a shortcut to this, Kim. And so like, like how many documents you can add to AI. And then like, well, I'm missing this, I'm missing the financials and I don't know about that. It's like, exactly.
So like we. The question is so simple.
Should I bring on Kim to own revenue to make my life easier and to get me more closer to my goals?
I think so.
What happens if this doesn't work? And why wouldn't this work?
And so I think it's just interesting because whether someone has like super intelligence next to them or not, like the situation doesn't change, does it? We're trying to get AI up to speed to help us with the answer, right? You're like, okay, well AI needs this and AI needs that. Well, okay, great.
So there isn't a shortcut. You're like, okay, I have to like go through 12 years of information and get them all the financials and get it like and like all to get the answer. That is pretty simple. Or we do it ourselves. And like it's a combination. Like AI is the, the rocket fuel behind if you organize right way, long term memory, total context, connecting the financials to say like you and like what I've got going on with the IBD vault is like next level because it's 15 years of this information tightly organized. So that way we can AI up to speed. But if it wasn't AI before Claude, it was Pat.
Pat was my AI. And Pat would be like, I don't have enough context. And what about this? And how about the budget? I mean, so like he was my like first experience with AI.
It's. Do you see what I'm saying? Like we just need the context. I don't know if there's another, I don't know if there's another way.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: I don't think so. Like I said, it's a really big decision that can have a really positive and, or negative impact on the business or negative impact on the business. So I think it needs to be done the right way. Like that's what we're, we're all about is showing people what good looks like. And what you're saying is that in order to have the right compensation plan in place to accurately motivate, have people work together as a team, you need to start with the, your goals, these other financial statements, your forecast, your budget, all these things. So that way you can make sure you're making the right decision financially. And then to better identify who, what role you need to hire for there, there are assessments for each of the functional seats. So one for CRO, one for coo, one for cfo. Take the assessment and see how you score. Like, it is a very data driven analytical process that will lead you down to the right decision.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Because the alternative is I will absolutely act like AI if people want me to. Like going back to the client that said, hey, should I do this? $40,000 executive compensation plan.
Great idea, Kim. Wow. How did you think of that? You're the most amazing human being on the planet.
[00:45:58] Speaker B: Affirmation. Affirmation. Affirmation.
[00:46:00] Speaker A: I'm the best coach on the planet. Like, by the way, here's your bill. $10,000. Keep going. How did you get so smart?
Like, I, like, that's, I think the difference of like, what it, like what you and I are trying to do is like, I refuse to do that.
I'm not going to answer any question or tell anybody what to do because I don't know and they don't know. I would rather help people understand, like, this is all the shit you should know to make the best decision. Whether it's Kim or not. Like, who knows you're going to find out, but let's have the highest probability of success when we have that happen. And I think where a lot of this comes from, Kim, is like, I, oh my God, I don't know how many, what the total amount of people is that I've fired, but it's like way over 70.
And when you're sitting there and you're like, you know it's the wrong person and you're like, they've already met all my customers. They're like, I have people reporting to them. I don't want to take that stuff on anymore.
Maybe if I just ignore this for one more month, it'll fix itself.
And then the culture gets worse and your customers get more mad and you're just like. And it's that situation that is like the resentment, the energy drain that is just like.
I think the question I propose it to everybody is what's worse going through that situation I just mentioned where, like, you're lying to yourself until that shit snaps back to reality, or you go through the incremental process of getting the actual foundation put together.
Because there's this meme that I love where it's. I think I've said it to you two doors shit and marsh it.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: Pick it.
[00:47:55] Speaker A: Not one says easy. I don't know, I'm just rambling on.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: No, but I think it's a really good point and I like how you explained it, that it's worth the time invested to go through and do everything the right way. Because otherwise you just. You're kind of just sticking your finger up into the air and hoping that you're guessing the right direction to go.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: Even if you use AI, that's still the case.
Yeah. What didn't they answer about annual executive compensation?
[00:48:22] Speaker B: I think we covered a lot in terms of, like, from the audience perspective. Do you have any recommendations on how to set a base versus the variable? Like you. You are using 10 as an example. Is that like a general rule of
[00:48:36] Speaker A: thumb or is that was 10 of net. Net normalized net operating income as the pool? So we were starting as.
What's the whole amount of cash that I'm willing to share from the ownership side for the executives and the operations?
So that's like that again, that's top down.
That's a data point. Just like you and I do like revenue forecasting. That's a data point. And then you go bottom up to say, okay, now you're actually putting the people's faces in there to like, well, I don't care that this says this. I need and want Kim.
And like, so the way I like to, like, I've watched this with my own executive team. And then a couple clients recently were like, we think we got a great team. Then we replace someone and we're like, whoa, they're awesome. Everybody else is. We thought everybody else was a players. Now they're being B minus. And so we're just constantly trying to level up.
And so I.
I don't know if I'm answering your question. Like, I think the base.
And then, like, the economy's changing a lot and what you never talk about this. The inflation hit the C suite with a vengeance. And I don't know if anybody's really talking about that because the people that can determine what they want because they own outcomes, those are people that everybody wants to hire.
For every five boomers that retire, there's just one Kim.
And now Kim goes, I need 300 grand because the debasement of the dollar is happening and like I can get this from someone that's willing to pay me. So like what used to be like three, I mean I have like where it used to be, 350 base pay for like a PE backed 150, $200 million company.
You're now 500 all in or more. So now you're sitting at like it's just hitting the C Suite, especially the rockstar unicorns like and they're gonna be able to get what they want.
And I really think that this is going to be the differentiating factor between companies that succeed or don't succeed long term. And so I don't know Kim, like I think like doing this and like figuring out creative ways to get these people on board is absolutely like almost a life threatening level of urgency to a company because otherwise you're going to sell your company at for half the price because you, you're stuck in it doing the, that you don't want to. So I don't know, like I mean you got recruiters that you can go to to talk about base pay for your company size. We'll give a shout out to Mike from out at Strategic Talent Partners who has been a good resource for our community, who does leadership team roadmap assessments and they do like leadership assessments and they do executive recruiting on the C suite. So they've got good data kind of like with companies that want to sell. Like I'm talking to investment bankers or brokers, like what's going on with the market?
So going to those people because it's not even just like the Robert Half bullshit that comes out which is got some merit to it but like go talk to the people that are actually hiring and hearing the conversations of like what's going to make someone move from a company to another company and what are they requiring for base and variable and like taking the, taking the titles for a grain of salt.
Like we need someone to own revenue. Is that a marketing director? Marketing manager, cmo, CRO, sales director. I don't know.
[00:51:58] Speaker B: Alphabet soup.
[00:51:59] Speaker A: Yep, yep. Like but what's non negotiable is the job, the outcome.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yep, yeah. And the skills needed to get it done. An interesting point that you bring up in there with the inflation and C suite and all of that.
Where do you stand with fractional services, like a fractional CFO or so say for the companies that can't afford the competition that's going on?
[00:52:23] Speaker A: I'll give a succinct answer as I can. But also let's put a note in here for module seven. As we start unpacking some of these functional seats and what they do, it's tied into that conversation quite a bit. I would say that I have, if almost ever seen a fractional service firm that is capable of owning the outcomes like we're talking about and make it mathematically make sense for them.
I'm going to give you my specific example and then I want your thoughts too. As you went off on your own and you looked at. Because I had a fractional CFO business, right, and you were looking at fractional CMO work as actually the person.
The math doesn't make any sense, Kim, to make like to actually hire a CFO like an actual CFO, not a freaking name title that someone on LinkedIn's, you know, like, like you. Someone that does this work, like a bad hobby, like they are expensive.
So if you just do the math, you're like, okay, let's say they need 300 grand.
Well, the company that employs them, like you take 300 grand on an hourly rate, that's a buck 50.
Okay, so you go, okay, buck 50. Like, okay, well if you split that between four or five clients, that CFO can make 300 to 350, right? So and then each one of those clients is paying roughly five grand to seven grand a month.
Say it's six, six or seven for a company to employ that person, you're charging 300 bucks an hour and now you're at 15 grand a month for someone to have an actual qualified person be that fractional leader.
And then like what happened? I mean like the math, like the whole business model was the most fucked up thing. I'm like, this thing sucks to run. And I was like, okay, like, so what I see that these firms do they hire the $120,000 controller?
Whammy. We're a CFO now. The math works.
But it's a controller three statement model working capital, five year forecast. Are you out of your mind? They're like, God forbid we know what revenue recognition means.
And let's extrapolate this to the fractional CMO and CRO. Do you think that anything I just mentioned doesn't apply to that space, to the CMO space.
[00:54:59] Speaker B: No, I don't, I don't think so. I have seen plenty of use cases where fractional services have been helpful for smaller businesses. Right. Like a fractional cfo.
Not as like I was going to
[00:55:14] Speaker A: say, you said services. I'm talking about fractional leaders of the C suite that we're talking about. That's what I thought the question was because like I'm a huge proponent of fractional services. Like huge proponent of that. I'm just talking about fractional leaders where someone is going to actually own the outcome of the seat that we're talking about.
[00:55:34] Speaker B: I think we're, Let me, let me clarify because I think we're talking about the same thing, but I'm not sure because now I'm confused. So I have a business, I need a CFO. I can't afford a $250,000 CFO. I hire somebody to be my fractional CFO that's coming in and I'm meeting with once a month or twice a month and they're doing my forecast and my statement model and everything else for me.
[00:55:57] Speaker A: Controller and controller is reporting to them. It's usually an in house controller. They're working with the bank, the CPA firm, like all that stuff.
[00:56:04] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that's what I was referring. Is that everything that you were just referring to?
[00:56:09] Speaker A: Well the same thing with like a CRO where someone's responsible for the entire outcome. Like.
[00:56:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:56:15] Speaker A: So when you say that you've seen people like, so you have good data points where people are working with firms like this and they're actually like having good success.
[00:56:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would say so.
I would say so. I think in some areas like the CFO line I've seen work better than like the marketing line. But that's just because I don't have really good experience with marketing agencies.
[00:56:38] Speaker A: Or am I just being too like jaded here? Where like, because like I think about like even like some of the firms that you looked at like going to work for before you and I started working together. And like I was like the math doesn't work. I'll never refer you because like it's like okay, if you get, because God forbid you get a Kim at the top, which is like I think maybe I'm like what I'm doing and why I get so jaded is because I look at like the cascading of level of probabilities of like a general audience having wide success is very small.
So like probability versus possibility. Is it possible? 100%. Like so anybody listening? Like I've had a great experience. Like well there are also people that win the lottery. So like, and maybe like that's where I just get so jaded because I look at even like the fractional marketing firms, I'm like to find a chem where the math works and then the company like because you, if you were to be a fractional CMO or Croatia, you would still need to hire the agency, you would still need to hire the people, they would still have to pay for the ads and like it have to all be connected in a cohesive plan that's tied to then the rest of the financials. And I don't know, I've just, I'm, I just don't know if I've ever seen that work or I've never seen that really happening.
[00:57:52] Speaker B: Yeah, like I said, I wouldn't compare the CMO role to the same thing as a CFO role. I think I've seen more success in more use cases on the CFO side than like because with marketing to your point, there's like the agencies and everything that you have to hire and all the things that you have to get done.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: But I think I've never seen a three statement forecast Cam. Well that's, and that's really, I, I think that's where I could just like, that's what, like I don't know how anybody makes any decisions without that.
And like maybe I'm just completely brainwashed by Pat where like if that's what good looks like, what's everyone else doing? And like you and I, I'm going to give a shout out to Strata Accounting. That's one of our, our preferred partners that we have people that are working with them. So if they're listening in like you guys are doing good work and then I look at like a, I mean like I don't know Kim. Like I go, okay, well I don't know, maybe I'm too jaded on this.
[00:58:43] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. I think it's that the people looking to hire them, to your point earlier, they don't know what good looks like and so they're getting not good fractional services in return. So I don't think the model is wrong. I think it's the hiring process like no to ask, do you have a three statement model? What is included? What does it look like? How does it work? Like that's a question that a CEO isn't asking fractional CFO services when they're interviewing.
But to your point, I mean, that's something that Strata Cloud accountants they have. And so they can do good work. And so I don't think it's necessarily.
[00:59:17] Speaker A: And that's the only firm. Like, they're like literally the only firm. Like, thank you for.
[00:59:22] Speaker B: Call them if you need a fractional cfo.
[00:59:25] Speaker A: I'm like, because like Hunter and Kyle are working with our clients and like, like, and that's where like I, I'm have. Hopefully people are still listening and they didn't go, oh my God, Ryan's a total crabby. Like the I was interview. I interviewed a hundred CFOs a year.
And then like I had to have people have a financial model in order to, for all this to work. And I couldn't find any firm that did this because everybody's like, well it's too much work to get this all. Like, either like it was too much work and didn't mathematically make sense to them or they actually had no idea what I was talking about. And so, and then I just think about this. Like you, you know, the CRO, CRO and CMO stuff. Like, you know, because you're an optimal data person, you're like, okay, well why are we spending money over here with this age? You know, like, you see the waste everywhere. And it's because like, what I'm seeing is like, that's why you are the expert. I brought you in. And pattern going like this is the optimal gold standard because of how many people aren't getting it. So back to your question about fractional firms.
I 100% think that the fractional service space has to be part of the equation.
Like, because like to ladder up where all of a sudden you got someone that's making 80 grand as a, you know, control or not even a controller. Well, let's say it's controller, marketing director, whatever it is, these people, as these companies are growing, you need to like have a like evolution in that salary. Not just like 90 grand, 200. Like that doesn't actually make any sense. So we need internal development plans for the people, maybe a fractional firm over them to like groom the controller to become the CFO or coaching programs for that person.
I think it's absolutely a must that we have these firms that we actually can reliably refer.
So like I'll like people submit their resumes us because we'll hand people referrals left and right.
Like would you have CFO or give a, a list of fractional CRO firms that you would actually be comfortable referring our clients.
[01:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah, CRO. I have two marketing agencies that I refer people to for marketing services.
[01:01:44] Speaker A: But not a CR in the equivalent of that would be a bookkeeping firm.
[01:01:49] Speaker B: Correct.
[01:01:50] Speaker A: Love. Like, which, like hundred percent way easier because you're like, I need this stuff done. You're doing that. I don't need you on payroll. So bookkeeping, you know, like the marketing stuff with the gavi agency, like 100% love that. But like, how about like actual leadership? Like fractional leadership?
[01:02:07] Speaker B: No, no, I don't have any off the top of my head for a CRO CRO role. But I think what you said in there, there's a couple of things that come to mind. It can be a useful solution, but you have to know what you're looking for and what to ask for. And that again comes back to ibd where we have painted the picture of this is what good looks like. Here are the assessments. If they don't match up to this, then you're wasting your time and your money.
[01:02:30] Speaker A: Yep. And.
And like little hack is go find the people that aren't working for a company because then they can charge like they're making really good money while charging essentially half price.
And so we can find those people if we know what good looks like. And there are firms out there. I don't want to be like. So I'm just, like, I just. I'm so sick of people not doing their job.
Well, we digress a little bit, but hopefully this was helpful for. Because I think that like the fractional leaders could also be comped just like we're talking about, like it's an outcome. Like so like even making the more makes sense for a fractional leaders. Like, hey, if we own the outcome and it's a fractional CRO or CFO or coo, like, you know, fractional integrators. You know, the US community calls it, like, these are the outcomes. Here's the comp plans.
I hope it works. I mean, like, and I think there were increase in the odds that there's a higher probability it works.
[01:03:28] Speaker B: I think in summation, in my mind, some of the key highlighted points that stand out are you got to do the work. You can't just say it's time to hire and go out there and just find somebody. And the comp fans need to be grounded in the data, the ownership goals, your financials, like what you're looking at moving forward, your budget, your forecast, all of that. So you got to do the work you got to know what good looks like before you can hire for a new role. And you need to have reliable assessment tools to make sure that you're hiring the right person.
[01:04:00] Speaker A: And those will be the bullets for AI's show notes.
[01:04:04] Speaker B: Perfect.
[01:04:06] Speaker A: No, I think you're right. And hopefully I didn't derail us on this conversation. I think it's so fun when it works. So, in summary as well, owning the outcome, these people, whether it's fractional, if it's a firm, if it's an individual internally that you want to develop, or. Or someone that you want to recruit externally, all of those combinations become a higher probability of success because we know how to connect all the dots. And more importantly, we can make that, that gamble.
And then quickly, like 90 to a worst case, 180 days. Three, you know, two quarterly boardroom meetings. Go. It's not working.
And it's objective. It's not subjective. And we just. We gave it a shot. And everybody should be abundantly clear why it's not working and it's not up in the air for why it's not working.
[01:04:54] Speaker B: 100%. What was the phrase that my dad used to always say? Slow to hire and quick to fire.
[01:04:59] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep.
Awesome, Kim. Thank you for trying to keep me on track.
[01:05:07] Speaker B: No, this is good. I enjoyed it. I like learning and going through all the. And I really liked the way that you built the comp plans and had everybody playing off of each other. So I'm excited for this module to go live and we can work on it with all the clients.
[01:05:19] Speaker A: Workshop will be in the June 25th. Yep, yep. And if you listen to this, then June 25th is already over. I'm sorry. Reach out and look at more of the upcoming workshops.
[01:05:31] Speaker B: I love it.
[01:05:41] Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Kastos Productions.
