Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Independence by Design podcast, where we discuss what it means to be a business owner and ways to get unstuck from the day to day so we can design a business that gives us a life of independence.
Camille, so excited to be back here.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: I am more excited than you are, I think.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Oh. Oh, well, okay, tell me why. Why are you.
Why are you more excited?
[00:00:23] Speaker B: You know, I think I'm more excited because the last time we spoke, I was in a major transition period, and now I just feel like solidly plan planted and just excited to catch up about what happened between then and now.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: So it's interesting you use that frame of reference because I remember in our conversation you seemed firmly planted, and I remember in my reflections of our conversation.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: And when you were on the panel at Small Giants, it was like you were so thoughtful about how you went through everything. So I'm curious, like, even though it appeared that everything went as you planned.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: What do you mean more founded and planted now if you did what you planned?
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's. So here we go. Right.
I do think that everything that we talked about last time, you know, that was right after I had sold the business, and that was a really purposeful, intentional process.
Um, but it's like after something like that happens when the business is such a huge part of your being.
Of course, I wasn't, you know, the thing that I was grounded to was now sort of extra.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Even though you planned life.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: Right. Even though it was planned.
And I think this period of time in the past three years since we spoke last, tons of reflection, lots of things have happened just in life. And that's, you know, I think I'm a fairly grounded, intentional person, but I feel like perspective is everything. So you can feel that way three years ago, and it's like fast forward three years. What you didn't know then, you know now. And I just feel that much more solid in my thinking and sort of why I did the things that I did the way that I did them.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: So we're going to be talking about your book, but I feel like the context as you. As we lead into what the book is about and how you wrote it and everything, what do you. What is your reflection? So now I'm three years later, like, so how would you describe. Like, like what. What is. I mean, because it's literally been three years since we met. So, like, what's. What's your thoughts about how you've, like, kind of reprocessed everything?
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, when you sell a business that you have been involved with since. I mean, I was one of the founding members of that business and I was about. Well, I was 21 years old, right. Fresh out of college, sort of fell into my lap. In many respects, this help build a business.
And that's all I knew. I mean, we talked about this. That was my career until they sold the business, became managing director of North America. But I was under another company's purview at that point in time. And I don't know if we've caught up since then, but I actually then became CEO of that platform company that bought us Human8.
Say that again.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Was it Human8? Wasn't it Human8?
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Yes. So I became the CEO of Human.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Were you working there when we, we.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Yeah, when we talked last, I was, I think I was the managing director of North America.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Kind of like, not really like you would hand it off a lot of the day to day stuff. And you were just. So what, what was the trend? Okay, you became CEO. What, what happened? I'm sure, I'm sure there's a story. And then you're not the CEO. So walk, walk me through that.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: So gongus was one of my company, was one of the last of, I think it was 10 companies that were purchased and became part of this larger organization called Humanate. We rolled up into Human.
And there was a point in time where the board of directors, private equity company that owned the platform decided that there needed to be a change in leadership.
They approached me, asked me who was
[00:04:14] Speaker A: currently, who is the current leadership team
[00:04:16] Speaker B: before the current leader. At that point in time was the person who started the quest for buying
[00:04:24] Speaker A: companies before all the 10 acquisitions. Were they part of the PE firm or was it.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: They were the ones who form the original deal with the PEU firm.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: So they were the original company.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah, they were the platform. And then we started coming out and
[00:04:38] Speaker A: the whole thing became a lot bigger than the original company.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, way bigger than the original company, which was the intent. Right.
And I think with some of the changes that I had made with my company, evolving it and making it fit for the future, I think they looked at that and said, you know, would you want to step into the CEO role?
You know, I had hesitations about it because I sold my company with the intent of like starting the next chapter, being done with this as part, I
[00:05:07] Speaker A: think, quote, unquote, you said, I. When I sold, I was really excited to shed the financial and internal responsibility and being the CEO of the whole Thing does not reconcile with that comment.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: The only thing that it reconciled is like, I didn't own it. Like I was.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: Yeah, you had a pool money outside
[00:05:24] Speaker B: of the business, necessarily, but still probably not the wisest choice.
But great learning experience.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Why'd you say yes?
[00:05:33] Speaker B: Great learning experience on so many angles. But there's a difference in owning your own thing versus working for anyone, especially private equity. Right. Like, it's a very different environment and for where the company was in its evolution and its sort of financial needs at the time.
As I got into the role, you know about. I don't know, however many months into the role, I knew I was not the right person to sit in that seat.
What they needed versus what my core skills and capabilities were. I knew that I was not that right person. And I'm still a shareholder in that business. I want the best for that business. I want it to succeed. So I approached the board and said, look, you need someone different than me in this role. I will stay until we find that person. But I'm not the girl for what this company needs right now at this part of its evolution. So we found that right person and put that person in place. And that is when I transferred over to the board of directors and then eventually became basically a shareholder. Shareholder of the organization.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: I'm curious on why you said yes and why you were no longer the right person based on your thoughts.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: I said yes because I really felt that there were a lot of opportunities for this company as a whole, for these companies coming together.
I felt like one of my core competencies was creating cohesion, taking multiple, you know, disparate things, bringing them together, creating cohesion, creating a vision, a strategy, a path forward. I mean, that. That is where I excel. Right? Seeing the future and creating a plan to get there.
And I thought that that's what this position would enable, but it didn't. It just didn't. It's for a variety of reasons, which I'm not sure I want to.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: I think you said you're still a shareholder, so I feel like the self censorship is already in. In place. And it's okay.
I'm. I already knew based on that comment, where I should go with my line of questioning.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Good.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I won't do that to you, I promise.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Well, it's just interesting. So like, maybe for a longer conversation, for a different day, but like, I.
Because everything you just described for your car competencies, which I'm assuming we're going to get into as it relates to your book, because Those are a lot of the words that you use in your book.
When those core competencies don't become a fit.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: When those core competencies don't become a fit is when the financials are the lead.
My whole premise and you know, if you've perused through the book, you know that there's a flywheel in there. I call it like a system of leading indicators. Right. Great people doing great work for great clients create great impact.
Those things financials then become the outcome of that or the output of that. In the situation that I was in, it was very much financials first. Everything else comes after.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: The pension funds need an internal rate of return so they can give the money back. Camille.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: And there's a lot of debt on these companies and we need, by the way, normalized. EBITDA does not include the debt payments and the interest payments.
[00:09:10] Speaker B: Exactly.
Yeah. And so in that situation, it's just like I, I struggle daily with sort of the disconnect between my value systems and system and what I brought to the table versus the environment and what the environment needed from a CEO.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: And that wasn't me not shocked because we met at the Small Giants conference in the Small Giants community. And I think it's, it's really interesting because without going down the rabbit hole that you and I are going in our head already is.
It's, you know, when you have the financials up top like that, and I think it's the timeline that messes that whole thing up. And then back to even like the quarterly timeline that these public companies around. I mean like the average public company CEO lasts. I think the new Data is like 17 months.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: Is it 17 now?
[00:09:58] Speaker A: It's like going down because. And it's because like if you actually go down and like it's all about the debasement of the dollar and I can't not always talk about that. But like the expectations of the CEOs in these companies is so absurd because the money's so broken that other than like three companies, no one has exceeded a 5% rate of return.
Like if you actually should go like. And then you go into the cash flow and all this stuff. So then the. Everybody just replaces the person, right, Thinking the outcome's gonna be different. AKA then you go into, then the UK, the UK's Prime Minister debacles and all of our politicians. Like everybody's expecting something different from that one person who's just the lip service for the wrong incentives behind everything is
[00:10:41] Speaker B: kind of how I wanted. Everything is set up and especially in that environment. Right. For short term. Right. Short term results.
And I get it. I mean, people put a lot of risk on the line. I get the need the money, they need the money. But that's every game I've ever played is the long term game. And that's why, you know, I love your flywheel. Well, I love the audience that you talk to. Right. Owner, operator. Because I feel like that is the lifeblood of our economy. You say it all the time.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: And those people, a lot of them are focused on, you know, what is it that I'm in this business for? To build for myself. But what else, what am I in it to build to make possible for other people in the clients that I serve? I think a lot of times as a company gets larger or as you start globbing companies together to create something bigger, you lose sight of all of that.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: And that's again back to when you think about, I was 33 years into my career, soul searching and going, is this really where I want to be spending my time right now? Not only am I maybe not the right person for the role, but I don't like, is this where I want to be giving my time and energy right now?
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Yep. I love it and I'm excited to unplug. Pack your flywheel. And a little bit of context to you. I think, you know, that it's, I think size has something to do with it, but I think it's more, I mean the capital structure and the, the, the, the need behind the distributions and the equity valuation in a particular timeline is the driving force because that then puts the wrapper around because it's the capital requirements between whether it's an esop, private equity firm, could be a long term hold private equity firm or public company. But that ownership structure, and that's because, you know, the, the whole small giants is like the EOT trusts and all the, all these different things.
But the, the ownership shareholders dictate the terms on the company and what the demands are. And what's just really fascinating as we go into your flywheel and I want you to explain it is like here's what I, you know, conscious capitalism. You and I think talked about that in the last one. It's big in the small giants, like, because I do believe that the actual flywheel that you're talking about is how the world actually works. And all we're seeing is the dysfunction of the.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Of the incentive misalignment. But I think the world actually works the way that you are describing it.
[00:13:02] Speaker B: Or at least wants to work that way.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: I think that's a fair point. I think it's like. But I think, I think that it does. It's the misalignment that's we're seeing that, that, that bending where it will snap back to reality at some point. And it's going to be pretty gross for people because there's going to, like when the world. It's like pushing the beach ball under the water, at some point it'll pop back up. And I think what it, like the equilib is what you're discussing in your flywheel, if that makes sense. So, yes, it isn't that way, but I think what we're seeing is this forcing function where if you walk us through your flywheel, explain to us like how you got to this and why you got to this and why it feels good to you. Because I do agree that that's how the world wants to work, to use your words.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think that the flywheel. How did I get there? I mean, I got there years ago when I, when I became CEO of Gongas, right. I realized I needed a way to talk to our people, right? Talk to my leadership team, have a system in my own head, as well as something that would be accessible to just like the everyday worker of the company where they could get like, this is a system that we need to keep, to get turning, to make the company grow, not just grow quickly, but also put us in a position of sustainable growth and potentially transferability at some time, right? So how can I do that? Like, what are the things, both the internal and external dynamics at play here? Firm believer that great people, right, are key to everything.
So the flywheel is great people doing great work for great clients create great impact. And to break down that down a little bit, right? Great people, in my opinion, produce better work typically. And when I say great people, what I think about there is retaining, you know, recruiting, developing, retaining individuals that embody the values of the company. They're aligned with your purpose and your mission, but it's also on you as the company to create an environment that those people feel like they're being nurtured, grown, developed. And key is that they're doing meaningful work, right? People don't want to come to work and just punch a button. They people want to do meaningful work.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: I'm just hitting the allow button on Claude or the AI. Like, allow, allow. Like wait a second.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, how, how fulfilling is that over time?
Oh, so it's like so Great people produce better work first, right? Better work then creates stronger client relationships.
Stronger client relationships create growth.
Growth then can be reinvested into people, innovation, impact. And you're just feeding momentum into this wheel with each of those four things. It's pretty simple, right? Like that great work piece and you say, oh, what is great work? Well, that requires the company to have clarity on what great work actually is.
And it's got to be something that your client or your customers actually value.
And then the strong client relationships have to do with like, I don't believe great client relationships are transactional. I believe that you have like a reciprocity there where you're bringing something to them that they need, they're getting that from you, but they're also feeding back into the system, right? By helping you innovate as a company, helping you co create a future together.
And then impact is everything from your people to your clients to like investing in the broader community that you're in. But all of those things, like working together in this cycle and you can tell like if one of those things are off, like if you lose a bunch of great people for whatever reason, right the, right after 2020, after a
[00:16:50] Speaker A: covet, everything shook up.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: You know, we had all that shake up. We felt that as a business because we were so reliant on the great people part of it, right?
Once one, if any of those dimensions are off, all of them start to falter. So it's like you can't just focus on one, you have to really focus on all four of them. But I mean, everybody gets that, right? When I introduced that idea to the company, it was just like, oh, okay, I know how I can impact each of these things. Everybody from finance to the intern that's brand new gets how they can impact it. And then I think the other beautiful thing about it is it's a system of leading indicators.
Okay. Like, if you think about most owner operators, you're talking about cash flow and EBITDA and revenue. And like most of our metrics are tell us what happened in the past, but they don't give us a whole lot of line of sight to what's going to happen in the future.
And obviously nobody can predict the future, but it's really, it's leadership depth.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: I was gonna say walk me through the KPIs that like, so because I'm, I'm tracking everything you're saying. I've got thoughts, I want to sync up because I think we're seeing the world in the same way. We're using really fascinating. But what are the actual leading indicators that you use in these different buckets to see whether things are something that needs to be addressed ahead of time?
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So if you think of the great people bucket, right. Just those dimensions that I mentioned, like recruiting, development, retention, all of those things, like keeping a hand, like how easy is us it for us to get people in the door when we need them and not just like somebody to fill a seat, but like high quality people.
[00:18:28] Speaker A: The right great person. Right.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: The right person in the right seat. The right person who's going to do that great work for us. If it's easy, we probably have a pretty healthy company. If it's really difficult, our reputation somehow probably precedes us and you know, for whatever reason they don't want to come to work here. But if we're losing people, that's a leading indicator telling us that our performance in the future, maybe today and in the future isn't going to be all that strong. So I love it. Think of like the strength of your talent and your ease of being able to.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Do you have anything, because retention is a KPI, obviously there, you know, when maybe like length of open job posting or how like. Or like maybe the, you know, the quickness to turn over or something like that. But how about measuring whether the person's a great person and a cultural fit? How do you. Is there anything that. Because like you could have great or does that show up in the churn?
[00:19:22] Speaker B: It just shows up. I think it shows in the churn. And I think the people that you have in place in your culture, so the strength of your culture or the, I guess what's the right word, like the quality of your culture, is it what you want it to be? That helps drive the hiring, retention like it.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: And hopefully that great culture will have the antibodies to get the person out.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: I was just going to say the same thing. Like people weed themselves out if they're not the right culture. Okay, yeah, but so you've got. And even in that talent bucket, you've also got leadership depth. Right? Like what's the quality of your leadership?
Are people in place because they're technical experts, which is important.
Right. But you also have to have people that actually have a high EQ can help a person get from this phase to that phase.
They find value in other people's success, not just their own promotion. So stuff like that. Those are all I think leading indicators of. Do you have organizational health? I think organizational health is sort of this overlooked measure of enterprise value that we just don't think about. But that, that flywheel that I was just talking about, it's like leading indicators of organizational health. When you go to sell your business or create a strategic partnership or whatever it is, you're selling more than like the financials. That organizational health piece helps the buyer. It's an indicator to the buyer of like, is this place actually going to make it?
Like, what's the future potential of this business?
It's.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: I completely resonate with you and this podcast is very interesting because we're just getting done with the leadership module of our, of our podcast and just as we're laying out our roadmap.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: But
[00:21:15] Speaker A: I keep using this.
So I played soccer and so you can have a great team or you can have a team that has very good technical players.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: And you can have a complete on your team.
Right. And so like in that event, you might win a game or two because you're just like cheating or you're, you know, hitting each other or you know, you're still outperforming but like everything's completely toxic, which I think anybody that's ever played a sport knows it'll eventually unravel.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: And I think that's where like, you know, because the financials are the scoreboard.
But what we're trying to do is make it sustainable over a scoreboard. Sustainable over time, where you cannot have a group of a bunch of. Because they'll just, they'll. They'll kill each other.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: I think there's a thing about like if you got a bunch of type A people together. Right. Only type A people together and they would just peck at each other to death and it just, it would not be a sustainable future. You need that mix of people.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah. You need the different actual players. And so I want to get into the, the other parts of your file, but I want to, I wanna, because I really interested to hear your thoughts about it because your financial acuity and like. So here's how I've been thinking about this because there's a lot of topics tied into this. But I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ramble because I want to. I want to. I think I can technically prove your point. And this is one of the biggest hard things that I've seen is like, how do we technically prove the ethos or the purpose driven company? And, and so. Okay, so here's where I'm going with this. So when we look at. So if we take the company's goals come from the shareholders of how much cash flow and act like not normalized EBIT, but actual freaking money. Like after working capital debt and tax, how much actual cash do we need every year? And then what's the valuation target in year five? Like that become. Because that's the discounted cash flow. And like we say, okay, this is our, this is the dictation from above.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: And then there's lots of games that we could play. Esop, private equity, public company. Let's assume that we're just going to say over the next five years, like here's the requirement of the operations, then we can see the income statements need.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: Because like the balance sheet, the cash flow statement is the ownership group, but like the income statement is the operations.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: CEO is the captain.
We have three main, main players, which is the revenue player, the margin player and then the cash flow player, which are the CRO, cfo, coo. Their requirements are based on the timeline and the dictation of the ownership structure.
And so when I think then about how do we quantify because that's just the objective truth of how game works of like over the next five years we need to do these things for these reasons. We can objectively see all of that in the numbers Jack Stack, the whole, I mean all of this is very objective. But then the going from that, that technical to the soft stuff that I think you and I inherently believe to be true.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:18] Speaker A: A company provides services to their customers which we call value.
And I think the word value gets all mixed up.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: It's like so many different definitions.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: Right. Like we do things like I have a client that sells and installs boilers.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: So they need to go deliver a boiler that keeps that building hot and make sure it's continuing to work, otherwise the building will be cold.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: That one seems fairly straightforward.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: This is why I'm trying to bring this down to the fundamentals to say, okay, revenue is us selling equipment or servicing and the cost of goods is us doing that.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: So like our customers are providing, we're doing this for our customers. And then the cost of goods is just the equipment and the people.
And at the basic level that's really what it is, the cost of goods, of people. Because at the end of the day I believe that a company is a group of people that organize together in a, in a delivery of like a service like the boiler or the, and the, the servicing the boiler. So yes, there's some equipment in there, but someone else's company built the equipment. But it's the people in the cost of goods because there will always Be people on cost of goods.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: And then like by actual technical definition, everything else is overhead.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Like by definitely. Yeah.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Expenses.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: So then you have hr payroll or the hr, the payroll processing. All the itd, all the marketing is all of the. Everything else is to support selling boilers and servicing them because someone else would like a warm building.
So then therefore.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Like that's everything else. I'm watching this and the reason I'm going so, so deep into this is like AI is collapsing in deflation, everything. So I am choosing all my clients where I don't want my customers to be a cost of goods. I'm sorry, I don't want my customers to be part of the SGA because AI and robotics have potential issues. But I say all this because what we're realizing is if you automated everything, everything collapses down to. Or paying someone else for time with their expertise. So the. To your point to then kind of marry this up if I'm, if I'm not losing everybody is. Great people is actually what the customers pay for.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Oh, for sure.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: That's it. And then so like if they don't have great people, your. Your product or service sucks and at some point that'll catch up with you.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: And so this whole flywheel is just collapsing it back down to having good people that do good things for the people that pay for it.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: I mean, at the end of the day that can. It's that simple. But yeah, I believe that should be true. And if you think about, you know, you brought in the cost of goods sold piece of that.
When I say the flywheel is a system of leading indicators. Right. Because it can start to, it can start to point to what tomorrow's performance is going to be. Because if you don't have great people or your churn is really high, so there's something broken in the system.
It really becomes tricky to figure out what tomorrow's performance is going to be. Or instead of focusing on people, the strong client relationships. Right. Like depth of client relationships, length of time, what they trust you for. Can I land and expand, like all of those things? If you don't have that and you're constantly going out and trying to find new clients because you can't keep the clients that you have, that's an indicator of tomorrow's performance, most likely. Right.
Like those things are giving you an indication of what. So that's why I say, would you
[00:27:51] Speaker A: think like net promoter score too?
[00:27:55] Speaker B: You could look at the quality of our portfolio. Like all of our eggs aren't in one Client basket. Right. If that client goes under or decides that they like Joe Schmo across the street better than us, we're out a client and our performance goes down.
But they're also an indication of risk. Right. All of those things give you an indication of, of risk, of resilience. You know, I think that that flywheel and all of those, those pieces of.
Isn't as if a company that has organizational health. And again, I, that flywheel, the center of it is like organizational health and sustainability. Once you're getting momentum with these four indicators, right. You're gaining health and sustainability.
That doesn't mean that if you're healthy, you don't have challenges. Of course you do. Every company has challenges. But if you're healthy, just like if you're healthy as a human. Right. And the cold virus is going around, everybody else is catching it. Well, you take a day to get over it.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: I still went for a run.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: And your neighbor sucks. But I'm going for a run.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Yeah, your neighbor's taking three weeks and still laying in bed. Healthy companies rebound quicker. They're more resilient, they adapt faster and usually they can change. And what is business if not change? Right. We're constantly having to change or pivot. You can pivot quickly because you've got people aligned to a mission. You know what they know what they're trying to do every day and they want to actually do it. They want a meaningful, healthy company. All of those things start to reduce your cost. It might feel like, oh, to have great people, I've got to invest so much. Yeah, but you know what? You're not getting the churn. You've got happy workers who are then producing happy clients. They're actually lowering your cost over time. If you're taking a long term perspective,
[00:29:52] Speaker A: okay, I love this and I'm so many thoughts, my brain just exploded. So I think that you, because you said invest, and I know you have, you know, with the purpose driven company, the purpose driven lever. I want, let me see if I can tie a lot of these concepts together for how, how I've tied them together in my head. And I want to hear your reaction to it as so of course we have to invest. And I think that's the whole nature of this financialization of these arbitrary timelines. Yeah, screw that whole thing up. Because in order to like the definition of invest is to get something in return. Well, in return is the healthy organization. And let's back go back to health. So there's this perception that we can take shots and pills and not have to go for a run and sleep eight hours and eat well.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: And I'm sorry, I'm just kind of being like. I just like, I don't know.
And it's like, but I'm gonna get sick. But the investment of. I. I work out every day whether I'm sick or not. Sometimes like, I got. I gotta. I got a toe problem right now, which I'm like, I have to do like. Like the. The hand bike thing.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: The word. I broke my foot last year and I was doing like, just to get my heart rate up. I was like sitting.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Is this me? Am I really doing this?
[00:31:17] Speaker B: But you miss like the adrenaline of working out. Like, you got your heart rate up. Especially if you're a runner. Used to that.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: Well, 100%, Camille. And so here's. I want to tie in a couple other ideas. Like, so we have to invest to get something back and to your definition or to. You're talking about purpose.
Yeah, is. So I came up with this concept in the IBD operating system, which starts before the whole thing is the noble aim. And so my definition of a noble aim is we have something that is beyond ourselves. That is, we want to impact the highest amount, the highest number of people over the longest time span. And the higher up we go, the bigger the like. Essentially what ends up happening is. So you use some interesting words here, that the high noble aim you look up. Looking up is actually like the heavens. So the word heavens comes from like looking up to miss is to sin. So the. We want to look up to have the highest goal that. And in order to have the highest goal, we have to have the largest sacrifice.
So in order to get that goal, we have to sacrifice in order to get to impact the most amount of people over the longest time span up to the biggest goal. But then that sacrifice, which I think you and I could use as the word investment, becomes meaningful.
So then we get the meaning behind the sacrifice, which is eating every day, running a company. And so then it's like, well, it's in relationship to this goal.
And so then it kind of orients everything around this. It's kind of. I'm just curious on what your thoughts are.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: Oh, so I love that.
So lots of thoughts there. And we probably should have slated like four hours for this conversation.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's why I love this stuff.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: I think that one of the points that you make often is having clarity about the game you're playing. Right.
So one of the sections in the book in Open when is around.
In fact, it's like the starting section. It's around fundamentals, right? Like figuring out what your base layer as a company is. So it's the basic stuff, right? Purpose. So why are you in business? Mission. What are we doing?
Values. All of those things. And I say them sort of flippantly, but I believe so wholeheartedly that you gotta have those. Like, why are you even doing this? If you are truly gonna own and run a business, you're signing yourself up for like hell on many, over and over again.
So I think it's thinking about things at two levels. One is, what do I personally want to make possible for myself, right? So in running this business, owning this business, what am I trying to make possible for myself? But just as important and taking it together. And this goes with your heaven. And you know, the, the level is, what is this organization making possible for the people that it serves? And by that, I mean your customers, your people, whoever the. The stakeholders that you serve. And taking those two things in context together. Because you. And you know this well, right? You. Your head's down, you're going, going.
You pick your head up and you're just like, oh, you know what?
I am going way too far on the people I serve side of things right now, and I'm sacrificing something for myself personally, or the other side of that is like, I'm investing way too much personally and I need to get back to the people that I serve. So continuously calibrating those two things and looking back at, why am I doing this? What's the vision like? What's this beautiful picture that I'm trying to create and get to, am I doing that? And are the people that I was doing it for, my family as well as my stakeholders, like, are we all moving in the right direction together? And if anything's off, that's where you just have to stop.
And sometimes it's like at those most urgent moments where you're just like, I can't stop right now. No, that's the time. That's the signal to say, hold up.
Is everything really working out the way that I want it to? And, and I will say too, like, sometimes that can be the trigger to say, you know what? Maybe this isn't right for me anymore. Maybe it's time to sell. Maybe it's time to raise your hand and say, I'm not the right person for this position.
But stopping and doing that, like reassessment. But first you got to have clarity on those things to make sure you know why you're doing this, who you're doing it for, what's that higher purpose you're trying to serve? If any of those are off, you need to have a conversation with yourself and say, is this really the direction
[00:36:03] Speaker A: I should be going in my program I called, I have got something called the alignment score. And I like that term because so it's out of 21 and there's time, cash from wealth, the three pillars which are the constraints and what the way I.
Because I'm. I very much resonate what you said where like I don't like being overly chaotic at all. Like it makes me like so uncomfortable which is why I have to work out every day, otherwise I lose my total mind. And so I didn't start running until
[00:36:35] Speaker B: about eight years ago and I'm like, why did I not start this sooner?
[00:36:39] Speaker A: It's like, oh my God.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Because you get so much clarity when you're out there.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Oh totally.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: It's like, okay, I'm just gonna let my monkey mind beat the crap out of itself. And so like, like it's this. But those, those breaks that you're talking about provide us a safe space to do that in my. Like that's what it does for me to what I. So the alignment score is like, because I feel like when I'm more chaotically nervous or, or anxious is because I don't have visibility into the future and alignment, alignment of like that noble aim. And so my definition is then to say okay, that, that it's out of seven for each of those out of total out of 21 say okay, I don't feel aligned with how I'm spending my time. I might be making a bunch of cash flow and the wealth might be on track, but something's off. And then just spending the time to think about that because we have to be. I think we should be aligned because then it's like taking all of our energy and funneling it in the direction is what is our God given gift of life. So it's like if we're not spending it in the time we should, we should change. But that becomes okay. I think we just don't give ourselves enough grace.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: We don't give ourselves permission to make it okay.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:37:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But it's like having that clarity as you go in to running a business and you know, I think revisiting why you're doing it frequently. Right? As frequently as what you need to because the reason you're why could have changed, right? The environment changes, your circumstances changes. It's totally okay. Right. But you got to be fully invested in the why. If you're not, people can tell. You can tell. And then there's that disconnect and the values conflict, and then you just go, okay, this is not the life I want to be leading right now.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: What.
What's behind the title?
[00:38:31] Speaker B: So what's behind the title? Yeah. So, gosh. So when I, you know, started to look back after. After fully being done stepping out of the CEO role, you know, moving on, I started to really think about my career and, like, just the journey I had been on. And one of the things that struck me was just that, like, you've got milestones, right? You start the business or you sell the business. There's. But there's so many, like, everyday moments that I realized.
I mean, things just like hiring people, repairing client relationships, making a choice to maybe start a new product line. Just like little everyday moments that I realize are the real truth of business. Right? Like, we talk about the milestones all the time, but it's like those everyday moments. And then I started to coach other business owners, and they were coming to me with these everyday moments, these everyday challenges or opportunities.
And that's when I said, oh, my gosh, there's something here with this, like, open when you are in this moment, because those moments are the ones that actually make or break the strength, health, sustainability of your business.
So I organize them around this flywheel concept, right? And they don't all fit neatly or perfectly, but that was the. The impetus behind open when was just like, open when you are in this moment. So open one. You're ready.
Say that again.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: Oh, so the book is open when. Yeah, I thought. I think we're more. Okay, got it, got it. It was more opening up your aperture or something like your perspective, but kind of both and both and.
[00:40:29] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: But it's more about the.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: Is there's. I think, I don't know how many different moments in the book. It's kind of funny. I've never actually counted, but I would say, like, 50 to 60 different moments of, you know, you're open when you're navigating change, open when you need to revisit your client portfolio. Like, just normal business circumstances that I think leaders kept coming, needing perspective on these things, and, like, it doesn't matter the industry that these people are in.
What matters is, like, the trend of the things that they're facing is all really similar. There are There are commonal. A lot of commonalities here.
So my. My hope with writing the book was really to be this steady voice of perspective and guidance for leaders when they are in those moments.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: What do you think it is about?
The. I'm trying to think how to word my question.
The ability to be the observer.
You know, both, I think, Rob Dubay. Right. So we're like, big Dubay fans and, like. And also, like, the. Just the thought process of, like, is it doing meditation and, like, what is it?
Do you think that's the issue or the challenge of, like, people stopping and being open when, like, you know, I mean, like, what is the issue? Like, I.
I find it fascinating, Camille, how many people just keep doing, doing, doing without taking that stop to open a book, say, what am I doing here? And so, like, and I'm just. More and more, I go on with life. The more and more I'm. I realize that I'm like, I. I have to constantly be reassured that I'm doing the right thing.
[00:42:22] Speaker B: So, like, isn't it funny? The more experience we get, the more reassurance we need.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: Right, Put it that way.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: It feels true, though, doesn't it?
[00:42:33] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So, like, what is it? What is it when you see someone who isn't and they're just going, going. And then what helps people kind of migrate towards being more open?
[00:42:45] Speaker B: It's a good question. I mean, I think that sometimes I think it is, like, facing. It's that challenge that's there and just continues to be there, and somebody finally just stops and says, look like you can't. What's the definition of insanity? Right?
[00:43:01] Speaker A: Isn't it doing it over and over
[00:43:02] Speaker B: and expecting a different result?
I mean, I think sometimes it's a really painful learning experience where you. You waste so much time because you try going at it, you're trying, and finally you stop and say, maybe this isn't really the approach that I should be taking right now. I used to always encourage my team. Like, as a business, if we were facing a problem that we just couldn't seem to figure out, I mean, we weren't that big. 150 people, right. Company. We weren't a huge company. It's like, guys, you know what? I'm sure there's another company that's faced this exact same thing before. Let's use our networks and, like, go talk to people. And I. I just think there's so much value as a leader of an organization, whether you're an owner or just, you know, a leader of a Team getting external perspective.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: Just some of the common ones that you continue to see. Like what are some of the ones where you look at your flywheel, you're saying, okay, this is like constant.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
I will tell you two that keep coming up with some of the people that I'm coaching right now. So one is just the whole trap of I am the owner of this business and I'm indispensable as the owner. And that whole idea of delegating to other people, age old issue, right? But I think the trap is you're delegating tasks, right? Like you're saying, hey Ryan, I need you to go do this thing and in your mind you know exactly how you want that thing to go, right?
You're delegating a task versus teaching how to transfer judgment.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: O I love it.
[00:44:51] Speaker B: Different things, right?
If you can develop judgment in that other person that you're delegating to, then you will finally get to being an intentional owner. Right. Where you can actually start to extricate yourself from every single decision that's being made. I think another big one for owners is just the.
Your identity is so tied to being needed.
And I fell into this trap big time, right? It was so tied to just like being needed. And that's probably the thing I had the most withdrawal from after selling the business. And like I still like, look at my phone, like just my email saved today.
Because you, like you, you thrive on being needed.
So again, just getting yourself out of that trap so that you can develop the leaders that can. Then we always say, like, you know, we don't want to be in the day to day the business. We want to be focused up here on running the business, not in the business. You can't do that unless you've got great leaders in place. But it's also really hard these days, it seems like to find great leaders.
I listened to your podcast. Was it Meg? Meg Summer?
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Meg Gold.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome podcasts.
And I thought it was really insightful to say like, you need to have this network of people that you can tap into.
Maybe you're not going to find that right person in that network. But man, if you're. The quality of your network affects the strength and health of your business for sure. Especially when you're growing and need to find those high level leaders. And that's another place where I'm seeing people struggle right now is just getting leaders in place that are committed and invested. And I'm not saying monetarily invested, but like mind share invested.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: Right in the way that an owner
[00:46:46] Speaker A: wants you to be, you know, super fascinating. So let me. This is so fun because I, I love testing out my ideas with super smart people that have experience because like, okay, so to piggyback off that my, my current perspectives or beliefs is why is that difficult? So like I've been really trying to unpack. Like, why is that such a hard thing right now? Yeah.
And because it is an age old problem. So some of the things that I've learned or I've uncovered through the podcast in the last 10 years or what all the different work of like, and like you said, like you start to see these trends. Right. Like, so this is not like Ryan came from above and like this is the thing. It's like, no, okay, there's obviously something going on here of like all of these things continue to happen, which is probably what you've experienced. And I see that some of the big challenges that result in what you just said are if we don't know that there's a shareholder role and a W2 role, that that becomes the like, it's like this cast aiding event where if we have with that's the first gate, it's like, okay, like I'm a shareholder of Apple and they don't give a what Ryan thinks.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:47:59] Speaker A: Like, so like when we.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: You're one of a million.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Yeah, like, like the only thing that the reason I've got my equity in there is for specific cash flow and a specific return.
So like so the whole owner, when you put that over here now, then it's like, because it's about learning this game. And I think there's such a immense amount of confusion of how does the game of business actually work?
And like, what are we actually supposed to be doing here? Because like my clients, like, I mean my dad and I were copier reps. Like, I didn't go to business. I got a D in accounting and my dad didn't go to college. He's like, I ran out of beer and weed money and I went to sell copiers.
Happened to be like he was. He could sell to a farmer and for a premium. And so I say this because then you wake up and I always joke, my dad woke up and he's like, who are you all? There's 115 people here. We had no org chart when I started.
Like, I mean it's total insanity, but like it's very normal. And so like when I say the game of business, that's why earlier in the conversation I walked it down from shareholder CEO is the captain. They're responsible for getting the whole steering the ship.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: Through people. And then you go CEO. Then there's these three functions. We need revenue, budget to actual every month. We need margins budget to actual. We need normalized EBITDA net income budget actual. And then working capital and cash is the CFO and the ownership skills. So I said the reason I spent so much time Camille, building out the owner's playbook is because. Because if we all understand the game.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: Then we can navigate it ourselves.
And I like, with my dad and I, it's like, well, no wonder as the guy run like I was run running the company with my dad, like he didn't know what the hell he wanted or how this works. So I was constantly confused. I'm like, well, how am I supposed to know to reinvest into manage it or cut cost to sell the business?
Well, it changes every day. And like, if the whole thing is totally crazy. So I say all this without getting any more long winded is that by breaking down, I've spent so much time on the mechanics and fundamentals.
So that way, like when we end up at the. Going back to the soccer analogy, if we've all agreed on the game, we've all agreed on how it works, what the rules are, what the players are, who players should do, what, then it's all a people game. And like, I chose very specifically not to tackle how to develop leaders as like the culture and all of the stuff that you start talking about here because it's like there's so many good people about that. But I believe if we haven't done all these things, it's very difficult to know, is it, is it Camille's fault that she's not succeeding or is it my fault or like, what's the expectations? And so what's your thoughts about.
[00:50:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's. There's the, I don't know, mechanics. Right. Of running a business, but the mechanics are fuzzy. If you've never run a business before. Right. And like you said, it's. If you don't understand the why behind the mechanics of the business, then how are you supposed to, how are you supposed to be a productive problem solver? You're not. You can't. You have to constantly go back to the owner who hopefully knows what's going on, but hopefully, you know, go back to that person in charge. And that is not the route to building a sustainable business.
Right. Especially if you're the type of owner who wants to eventually not have as Much responsibility or if you want to grow, you can't do what you're doing today. You can't keep doing that if you want to grow.
And that I think is another painful lesson, and I talk about that in the book too, is just like, you can't continue to rest on the like, oh, it's just faster if I do it myself.
Because doing it faster yourself, like you run out of time eventually, right? And you're not growing a business. Growing a business means you're growing people. You're literally growing and developing people. If you're growing a business and if people are still doing the same thing today that they were doing two years ago, you're probably not growing.
[00:52:17] Speaker A: I love it. Growing a business means you're growing people.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: I and we would always even talk about that when we would talk about growth as a business. We would always communicate it and be really purposeful and intentional as we were talking to each other. Like, growth doesn't mean just the numbers. It means that our people are actually growing and developing too. They're doing different things today. They're capable. We're building their capability in a way that they're feeling like they're growing.
[00:52:44] Speaker A: How did you measure that or how did you have roadmaps or was there things that tools that you used?
[00:52:47] Speaker B: We had growth development plans for everyone. Again, I mean, 150 person company wasn't that. I mean it was big enough that that was somewhat cumbersome. But we would have talent discussions twice a year. Like, here's who we have, here's the position they're in right now. Where do we see them going? We would call it talent mapping and it was sort of a way of succession planning, honestly, because you would look at the critical roles of the organization.
Because trying to find somebody to fill a critical role when the person in that critical role leaves or I don't know, God forbid, something bad happens or they, something great happens, they win the
[00:53:27] Speaker A: lottery and lead a company.
[00:53:28] Speaker B: Right?
Trying to succession plan in that moment, not super smart. So we would always be thinking about, gosh, what are the critical roles of the company and how do we make sure we've got people lined up, that we're building those capabilities in our people so that those roles don't go unfilled. And we'd also think about positions.
[00:53:47] Speaker A: When you're sitting there, Camille, when you're sitting there, how did you guys go through that decision making process versus like, like we really like Camille. She's a, she's great. You know what I mean?
Versus that subjectivity that becomes very, I mean we, we want to trust our gut. But then like, was there like, like objective things that you were looking at?
[00:54:08] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. Like we looked at the position and like what skills were actually necessary for that position.
So what did it, what did that position take in terms of, you know, hard skills, soft skills? And then we had this thing we'd call the IT factor, like the X factor. The IT factor. Just like, you know, when people have that thing, like they're, they're either willing to put in more time and energy.
Clients just, they have this affinity to growing client relationship. Like the IT factor for a position could be a variety of different things, but there was like that, like little bit of extra subjectivity that went in. But for sure there were critical skills that required that we were trying to grow in people. And as we tried to. Like we started as a data collection company, right. We were traditional marketing research.
But we evolved the business into more of a consultancy which required a lot of different skills than a technical market researcher. And so we were really trying to think of like, what are those skills and capabilities that we need to be developing in our people to grow this business into this consultancy future. And we knew we weren't going to be able to do that just with the people we had. So we did both. Like we hired people from the outside that had those critical skills and then those skills, like when you're working alongside somebody who has those skills, other people that are in the business are then learning the skills on the job too.
[00:55:38] Speaker A: Okay, so to continue that then I got kind of two parts to this question. Is so helpful to understand how you were like thinking about your talent map with your employees.
I find that some of the things that continue to bubble up is pat. I mean, you passing on that judgment that you said is so important.
So I'd love to hear more about how did you actually. Did you have like a actual process on passing out that judgment or was it intuition and skill set, you know, that was inside of you? And then what gave you the courage to do that instead of.
Well, not only to what gave you the courage to do it, but then continue doing it when it failed?
[00:56:22] Speaker B: All good questions. Yeah.
[00:56:25] Speaker A: So and if I, if I have to go repeat after. Because if you lose. Because I know it was a lot,
[00:56:28] Speaker B: but I'm so first one in terms of how to do it. I think that the how is on the job, right? It is first. It's first it is about being super clear about if the company's aligned, about why we're doing this, what our vision
[00:56:48] Speaker A: is, what you go back to the funnel. This has to be true.
[00:56:51] Speaker B: I mean, it's. Right, it is. That's why the book starts with it, like, get your damn fundamentals. Right.
[00:56:56] Speaker A: I love it so much.
[00:56:58] Speaker B: Because if you're. If you're misaligned on that, you can't transfer judgment.
[00:57:01] Speaker A: No reason talking about all this.
[00:57:03] Speaker B: Right. So make sure you're aligned with that and make sure people understand the priorities of, you know, the great people producing, great work, great clients, blah, blah, blah. So once everybody's on the same page about that, it makes judgment easier to transfer. But for me, it really was like having people in the same room. Right. Making decisions together and asking like, okay, you know, where we're trying to go, Ryan, what would you do in this situation? And have them talk about how they saw the situation, what they thought the next step would be?
And then I could easily say, like, yep, that makes a lot of sense. Let's do that. Or have you thought about it this way? But it was a process, honestly, of spending time with people in situations, in the moment, learning together. And I will say, sometimes what I would have done might change based on what that person brought to the table. And that was a beautiful thing about it, is in transferring judgment or trying to transfer judgment.
I grew too, you know, and that as a leader, I always wanted to be growing and learning. And I made sure that the people I surrounded myself with that I wasn't always the smartest person in the room. I didn't want to always be the smartest person in the room. Right. You want to learn from the people around you. But I think the best way to transfer judgment is just like working collaboratively together so that they.
You can be in a situation and go, huh? I've seen Camille or Ryan, whoever do this before.
I thought a lot about modeling behavior. Like, what I was modeling was always in the forefront of my mind.
And that kind of sucks as a leader to have to be that aware of your actions. But you do. People are always watching.
[00:58:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Self awareness is important.
[00:58:58] Speaker B: Yeah. You're always. You're always forming an impression, whether you want to or not.
But I thought a lot about the behavior that I was modeling, and in the hopes that without intentionally saying, like, hey, guys, you're watching what I'm doing. You know that people.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Right, Exactly.
Yeah.
[00:59:18] Speaker B: But there were instances where you be. Or I would be intentional and say, hey, we're going into this client meeting right now. I want you to pay attention to what I'M saying here, I can think of an example specifically of, you know, it was a really dicey client situation and I had, you know, two higher level people on the phone with me and like, pay attention to this and let's debrief it afterwards so we can talk about what just happened. And, you know, does that make sense to you? But, but always really cognizant of the behavior being modeled are people learning from it and being in situations and saying, hey, what would you do in this situation?
And talking it through.
[01:00:01] Speaker A: It's I, I, I absolutely love it. It's reinforcing a lot of the material that we have in our playbook.
And I think it's so fascinating about.
It's just judgment, right? I'm going into this why I'm going to be saying this because of these reasons I'm hoping the outcome is going to be this doesn't mean it's guaranteed. And like, it's just this constant, perpetual judgment. And so it just reminds me, Camille, my, like one of my, I mean, is my first job in sales selling copiers. Like, you're going into sales meeting after sales meeting after sales meeting and like, it's all like, get in the car. You know, you'd be in with your manager. Like, well, man, did I that up because I said these things. And like, and like, and like the best, the best sales manager be like, this one, one client that was like, we lost the deal. And the question is why we lose the deal? And they're like, because of Ryan Tansom.
They were like, Ryan Tansum's too much and we don't like him as our account rep. So we decided to go with the other vendor.
[01:01:05] Speaker B: And I was like, jaw drops like,
[01:01:08] Speaker A: yeah, like, oh, like stab in the heart. But like being aware and having that debrief to say in the next meeting. Then if we're going to lose the account because of my personality mismatched with them, let's bring someone else in and win the deal together. Like, and I wouldn't have known that had it not been through that. So it's this perpetual flywheel of judgment.
When did you feel like, what's that?
That point where you feel ready to let the birdie fly.
And then how do you know if you screwed up as a leader to like, trust their judgment or how do you of course, correct if that judgment's not correct once you let them fly and how do you balance that?
[01:01:46] Speaker B: I mean, when to let them fly?
Some of it's a judgment call, honestly.
[01:01:52] Speaker A: Back to the judgment on Judgment calls. Right.
[01:01:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I. I think you can gauge also by the.
The risk or criticality of the situation. Right.
[01:02:03] Speaker A: Good filter.
[01:02:04] Speaker B: Maybe don't throw them into something that's like uber crit until you've seen them in a less critical situation first.
So. Right.
[01:02:12] Speaker A: Very important point. Yeah.
[01:02:13] Speaker B: So you can judge it based on that, but some of it too would just be like putting them in the situation and being there to observe. Right. And then being able to observe it and then say afterwards, like, that was awesome. Like giving critical feedback right away. Right. Not three weeks from now before everything gets. Or when everything's fuzzy, but like giving the feedback right away, not being afraid to give the feedback.
Also not being afraid. Like, all of these situations are not going to go perfectly. And just because in your mind this person's going to be a great leader doesn't mean they actually will be. And you've got to be okay with yourself to say, you know what, Camille, you thought this one was going to work out, and it's not. And to be willing to put them in a different role or, you know, not promote them or not promote. I mean, making those tough decisions. I mean, some of the probably worst decisions I made as a leader had to do with putting people in positions that maybe they weren't qualified for yet or, you know, it just.
[01:03:20] Speaker A: How did you course correct. That's always one of the biggest questions I get out of our community. Like, this person's in the wrong role.
We like them a lot.
[01:03:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:30] Speaker A: Now what?
[01:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah, and there's a lot in this book about that, because the people part of this book, like the people chapter, like developing great people, is probably the.
One of the thicker parts of. Of the book or meteor parts, because the people dimension, as you know, affects so much else. But honesty, Right. It is. It's calling it what it is. If a person isn't right for the role, usually they feel it too.
And one of the one. One of our core values as a company was humanistic, and it was one that we were noted for. The core values were humanistic, intelligent, passion, pride. Those were our four, and they happened to form the acronym HIP Ha.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: Oh, cool. That's awesome.
[01:04:11] Speaker B: But humanistic was probably the most differentiating one because I used to always say, like a company that's intelligent has a lot of passion and pride. Without that humanistic dimension, think how cutthroat that could be.
[01:04:22] Speaker A: Right.
[01:04:23] Speaker B: If you have the IP without the H, that could be a really different environment. All these intelligence.
[01:04:28] Speaker A: That's like ge. That's like the Old ge, right?
[01:04:30] Speaker B: I mean like, exactly.
[01:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah. We're gonna fire everybody at the ten bottom no matter what.
[01:04:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh my God. Yes. I remember that from like college case studies. And you were just like, oh my God.
[01:04:40] Speaker A: Now it's, now it's on the what not to do.
[01:04:45] Speaker B: While this next generation coming up behind us would never stand for that. That. Right.
So humanistic was a differentiating core value. But we used to think like. Right. Humanistic doesn't just mean that you're like kind and caring. Part of being.
I guess the caring dimension. Yes. Is that you got a person in the wrong role.
Part of being caring is like talking about why it's not a good fit. And most of the time they think it's not a good fit either. Now that could mean not a good fit. And we can repurpose you and put you somewhere else in a different role that's a better fit. But sometimes that wasn't possible. Sometimes it was. That not a great fit means you gotta exit from the company.
And while that might seem harsh, nine times out of ten they're better off because they went and found something that was a good fit with a company you know, that they can flourish and thrive at. And you find the right person for that role.
[01:05:42] Speaker A: Let me unpack that for a little bit because I think one of the biggest challenges I've been seeing people deal with and I remember vividly and I don't have a good attitude for it at all, is when that situation happens and you like the person a lot and. Or maybe they might be holding you over a barrel. So the two of the same situations could be possible where it's like someone that you love a lot or it's like, oh my God, this thing turned into a toxic soup. And now I'm like, I feel like there's this.
Both of those exam or both of those situations could lead to making that decision out of fear versus abundance and love.
[01:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:22] Speaker A: Which then if it's out of fear, I think this like, like this. The, the, the narratives that we tell ourselves to convince ourselves to either ignore it or to passive aggressively try to do certain things where, like to do the courageous thing to tell the truth right at the, at the beginning. I think there's this fear that a lot of times, like what's the impact on the client? And is the client. This is our major account rep now what. This is this specialist that has all the information in their head and are they willing to be demoted or what's that going to look like with the rest of the team or if they quit, then all of a sudden we're going to. And it's all this cash flow that's going to disappear.
How did you navigate that?
[01:07:07] Speaker B: I mean, all those situations that you just talked about, I feel like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. At least every single one of them, you know?
[01:07:13] Speaker A: Right. They suck so bad.
[01:07:14] Speaker B: And I think the bigger you get, the more. The larger the company grows by bigger, the more you're going to face things like that. Right. And it is always best to be clear and have the radical candor with the person and just feedback, feedback, feedback. But it's got to be.
I think one of the biggest mistakes I would make and that I see leaders making is like, you think you're delivering this tough message to the person.
Right? Like, you think you're telling them, like, hey, this isn't working out for these reasons. What they hear oftentimes is a lot softer than that. For whatever reason is your stomach ache
[01:07:53] Speaker A: while you're trying to explain it.
[01:07:55] Speaker B: But just being super clear about, like, here's. And making sure the message not just clear, but it's compact enough that a person can digest it. Are. My old HR director would say, like, no more than three things. Right. Like, if you can boil it down to one, great. But don't go dumping 20 things on this person in terms of what they're not doing. Right.
[01:08:17] Speaker A: You need to fix everything about who you are, and then you would have been a fit.
[01:08:20] Speaker B: And then we can talk.
It's like no more than three things. Be super clear. They've got to be objective.
You know, it's got to be.
[01:08:30] Speaker A: I know.
[01:08:30] Speaker B: Things that the person has a chance to actually change. But the other thing is in that conversation.
Make it a conversation.
[01:08:42] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[01:08:43] Speaker B: Because we'll be really.
[01:08:44] Speaker A: This is not the termination meeting. This is. This is the.
[01:08:47] Speaker B: This is not the termination. No, no, no, no.
[01:08:51] Speaker A: And done.
I learned the hard way, do not give explanations. Everything you can, everything will and can be used against you in a court.
[01:09:00] Speaker B: Court of law. Yeah, that. Completely different. But if you think there's hope and you're trying to.
[01:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah, right. This is way before.
[01:09:07] Speaker B: Turn something around. Just be. You got to be super clear. You can be kind and clear at the same time.
[01:09:13] Speaker A: I think they're the same. Brene Brown. To be clear is to be kind.
[01:09:16] Speaker B: I was just gonna say the same thing. Like, clarity is kindness. Right. And I think it's just being super clear is key. And then the other thing is putting something together together.
So putting a document together together that says, these are the steps we're going to take to correct what needs to be turned around and by when. And then you can't just let it go for six months.
You got to be accountable to that person. The person needs to be accountable to you, but you got to be accountable to them, too. If I say, ryan, we've got these three issues and I don't talk to you about it again for six months, how is that me being accountable to you? It's not like I'm here to help develop you. So we've got to touch base on this so that we can turn it around.
If we can't, then there's not a lot of hope.
[01:10:07] Speaker A: I have a question about that, about hypocrisy and how to deal with it. But before I go down that.
How long did you give people like, from the like. I think another one of the challenges I've had and I watch other people have is there's the moment your gut knows.
[01:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:10:27] Speaker A: And then there's the process that we have to go through before those decisions. Like, how did you deal with that fuzziness in between?
[01:10:38] Speaker B: By working really collaboratively with a really good, like, people and culture person or human resources person. Right. But as a, like, if you don't have that at your disposal, let's say that you don't have that available.
Trusting your gut's important, but I think you also owe the person some leeway to prove themselves.
And depending on what the thing is that they're trying to turn around. And that's where you can decide how much time it takes to do it. You know, if I expect you to turn something around, like a pretty monumental task around in three weeks.
[01:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:11:13] Speaker B: That's not realistic. But give it a realistic but not crazy timeline. Because if you give it a crazy timeline, all you're doing is dragging out the inevitable for yourself and everybody around you.
[01:11:23] Speaker A: Yep. And I think that timeline is what I think brings peace to someone allowing the try instead of complaining about it every step of the way. They're like, yeah, I like that because like, what I. What I. In the spirit of like, I'm not tackling like the intrinsic people part of this. It's like all of the mechanics around and like these playbooks around. It's like I, I think the way I've described it is. So I've got this thing called the functionality os. So this functional assessment, whether it's finance ops or.
Or revenue. So there's like this functional mechanical assessment for each of these that are type. Think about It Camille, like a due diligence checklist. If we were to go buy a company, we would analyze strategic plan. Yeah, we would go. So it's like almost like a due diligence, you know, assessment for each of these functions, which is the task list of, like, this is what this team needs to do regardless of the people regard. Just. It's just like fundamental functions. But then I have this leadership readiness assessment. So it's the score the person and score the function.
[01:12:21] Speaker B: Got it.
[01:12:21] Speaker A: And then we're trying to use both of those to match up. But it's not me building out programs. Like. Like the people program is me just saying, here's where they could be at as a level of technical awarewithal judgment. And like. But it's not doing it for that. Does that make sense? It's more just like the scoring system. So that way we can see these dynamics. But where I'm going with this is I think it's the moment that we become aware that's like this new inception point to say, okay, I now am aware that Camille is missing the mark. I've now got these two tools. We're gonna have this conversation. So even though I might already have my judgment made up, that's where it starts. The clock.
[01:13:05] Speaker B: I see what you're saying.
[01:13:06] Speaker A: For the person to say, okay, like, even though I'm already be pissed, I'm already have some bubbling resentment and you're not the right. But, like, to be fair, where we can look ourselves in the mirror as a leader, it's like this.
[01:13:16] Speaker B: The.
[01:13:16] Speaker A: The clock now starts because I finally clearly communicated what I expect to Camille.
[01:13:20] Speaker B: You made that person aware.
[01:13:22] Speaker A: Yes. And then it's like, okay, then there's like. And to. To then use your words. Then it's that process that you just described should be applied to whatever time frame.
[01:13:32] Speaker B: You got it? Yep.
[01:13:33] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:13:34] Speaker B: It's got to be. Yeah. And I think the process key is objectivity. It can't be based on, like, subjective gut feeling. Like, that needs to.
[01:13:42] Speaker A: I woke up and I'm mad at you now.
[01:13:44] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:13:46] Speaker A: I didn't. I didn't work out today, and now I'm pissed.
[01:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't get my run in. All I got is my seated our movement workout.
But I think that also points to when you hire somebody or promote them into a position, whatever. When a person enters a new role having clear job expectations, the role description and expectations. And that's another place where I see a lot of, like, small business owners flounder there. It's like people in a position, but things aren't really spelled out or documented for all of the roles. And you can't have those conver. It's very difficult to have those conversations about expectations and performance if there's. If the person doesn't actually know. Like, if there's not a documented alignment mechanism between us, how do I have that conversation?
It becomes a lot more difficult. So have the stuff written down.
Have it.
[01:14:42] Speaker A: So fascinating.
[01:14:43] Speaker B: Clear.
[01:14:45] Speaker A: All of these conver parts of this conversation are why people have no idea how to use AI.
[01:14:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my gosh.
[01:14:52] Speaker A: So isn't it crazy? It's like, well, why would Claude know what the hell I'm thinking if I don't tell it?
[01:14:59] Speaker B: I don't know what I'm thinking.
[01:15:01] Speaker A: Right. It's so bizarre.
[01:15:03] Speaker B: But even, like what I have seen so often is like, having an owner or, you know, leader go through the process of actually defining what the head of sales role entails or the, you know, whatever the chief operating officer that they're trying to hire. Like, go down and like, write it down what you want out of this person.
The insights that they gain from, like, spending. It's not that they know what it is. They just haven't spent the time doing it. And it also helps with differentiating their role from these other people that they're bringing into the organization.
Right.
So it's. It's clarifying on so many different levels. It's just so often people don't want to spend the time doing it, but it's critical.
[01:15:48] Speaker A: Well, and so going back to when I said I want to come back and talk about hypocrisy, because I think there's this interesting part about leadership and culture where like, so like my biggest allergic reaction to any other leader is tyrannical oversight. And tyranny, I think comes with hypocrisy.
[01:16:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:16:12] Speaker A: And like, in like, because tyranny is dictating someone else do something while they are choosing to do something with a different set of rules.
[01:16:21] Speaker B: Yep.
[01:16:22] Speaker A: And part of it, it's not always. Not a perfect definition correlation, but like, it. That's when I look at tyranny, it's like, oh, my God, like, you're telling me to do this, but while doing this, while you do this, which. That breeds resentment as an emotion in me. And like, resentment is. I'm so terrified of that emotion because it can swallow me alive. And like, it, like the worst of Ryan comes out. And so like, my whole, like, I just want to get rid of. I just want like the moment I just want to get. I'll. I'd rather say the truth now because it's like, I don't want that meant, but I think it becomes such an. A monumental, crucial variable for us in the limelight. Like you said, like, you're always being looked at. So, like, if you don't come back to that document that you said to that person. So it's like this. We're like, you're in total visibility, and so that alignment, you're exposed. And so the hypocrisy, even though it. With the people that you and I hang out with, I think it's probably mostly unintentional intentional hypocrisy is the most disgusting thing I could ever think. I mean, like, that should just be eradicated.
But if it's unintentional hypocrisy, I think that's what breeds the resentment and it just bubbles into. So it's like any way that you managed those emotions or accountability or alignment for you as a leader or.
[01:17:43] Speaker B: So are you saying, like, if I.
[01:17:45] Speaker A: How did you deal with it? Like, do you think that this is a thing? Any thoughts about, like, how you.
What's your thoughts about it?
[01:17:52] Speaker B: I think that.
I don't know. Principle to live by is walk the talk.
[01:17:58] Speaker A: Right.
[01:17:59] Speaker B: If you're. If you are putting something out there and you want other people to follow it, you've got to be the biggest advocate or illustrator of whatever that thing is.
And are you saying, like, if I would see it in other people?
[01:18:16] Speaker A: Well, yeah, because, like, yeah. And I don't even know what the particular question was in there. I just find that this becomes such an important dynamic because, like, when I look at a culture, it's like, there's just resentment bubbling up everywhere. And like, where's the resentment come from? It's usually unclear expectations or hypocrisy from people that are dictating what other people do and they do other things. And so it's like trying to constantly eradicate this stuff. But I think the reason I brought. I thought about it is when you were saying that, that someone's telling someone else to do something and then they don't come back to it. So then there's this, like, link or. Or it's, I'm telling you to do this, and then they're watching someone else do the opposite.
[01:18:53] Speaker B: Yep. And how do they get away with it? You know, here's. Here's what I think it boils down to and what is, like, the basis of leadership period? Trust.
Right. It boils down to trust. If I say, Ryan, you need to improve these four things and I never ever circle back with you or extend any help to you to improve those four things.
There's like maybe trust doesn't erode, but did even ever exist to begin with?
I read. I'm sure you're familiar with Strengths Finder. You know Strengths Finder, right. There's a book written by the same people called Strength Space Leadership.
[01:19:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:19:31] Speaker B: And they did this study over I don't know how many years and how many thousands of people.
But you think leadership is all about the, you know, following people that are just have big ideas and can see the future. Charisma, charisma, all of that and what it actually boiled down to is people.
The strongest leaders had followers because of four things. Trust, compassion, stability and hope. Those were the four. They called it the followers four. So you've got those four things, your followership and you know, you use the word leadership loosely. If there's nobody behind you, you're not actually a leader. You might be a leader in title
[01:20:14] Speaker A: and they can't be in shackles, those are called prisoners.
[01:20:19] Speaker B: But a leader. I was a firm believer in building people to be leaders that were leaders in more than title. Right. We wanted to build people that other people wanted to follow. But that first piece, the trust piece, if you don't have trust with the people that you are in business with, whether it be your customers or the people that are working for you, I don't know how sustainable that's going to be. Right. And sure, I'm sure.
[01:20:47] Speaker A: And that trust is the currency behind the value exchange.
[01:20:51] Speaker B: You got it.
[01:20:51] Speaker A: Like we're like, we're like if we're trading time and value back and forth and it's really, you know, it's as we're kind of rolling into a close, I've got a couple final concepts I want to unpack. The, the ability or desire to use that trust to push the judgment down through the organization.
And like I've used the words like I think it's becoming addicted to building leaders and building judgment is what I think can allow us to get out of that day to day firefighting. But any, any, any thoughts about like what a lot. Was there something at like in the core of you that allowed you to do this better? Like my example for me is like I just never wanted to do any of the work. Like I grew up in a family business. Like I don't want to do any of this. So then it was like, well, why wouldn't I build a team to do this because, like, there's no, like, ego here. Like, Ryan needs the best at any one of these things. Because the whole point was, like, I don't want to.
[01:21:49] Speaker B: I don't want to do it.
[01:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah, right. And it's like, if I don't want to do this, Camille should do this. And then, like, if it's not Camille, it should be someone else. It was never like, oh, I can't wait. So I have. Maybe it's the second generation. I have way less. I mean, I love being needed. Don't get me wrong. I have a coaching business, but being needed in the operations was not my thing. But I'm. I guess maybe I'm digressing too much, but the.
Trying to shift the addiction is kind of what I was like. I'm trying to say, like, hey, can we shift being addicted to growing leaders and growing judgment and passing it off that. Because, like, it's almost like this. Shifting the. The focal point. Anything. Any thoughts about, like, why you were good at this and why you were able to do this, or did you have to go through a struggle to go.
[01:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Let's just say I am. I am not claiming to have been perfect by anyone and have had lots of struggles with it.
I was the type of business owner who want, like, I wanted to be involved in everything because I felt like.
I felt like being involved in stuff gave me information is. Is important. Right. It gave me the information that I needed to keep advancing the business. I always felt like if I got too far away from the day to day, that I wouldn't be able to have that vantage point of, like, okay, but how do we get. And when I say advancing, I meant, like, better incrementally, but also better, like, innovating to be fit for the future. So I actually wanted to be involved probably more than my team maybe wanted me to.
[01:23:16] Speaker A: I love it.
[01:23:17] Speaker B: But I also had a huge always. And I don't know exactly why.
Penchant for leadership and wanting to grow leaders and. So were you in team sports growing up?
[01:23:30] Speaker A: Or, like, what was. Were you in team sports growing up or what was it in your.
[01:23:33] Speaker B: You know, I don't know exactly why. It's not from, like, a team sports background at all. I think I'm.
[01:23:42] Speaker A: What's your sibling?
I was in six or seven. Okay.
[01:23:46] Speaker B: So I think there was. I was always, like, that mediator among.
Among some of the siblings.
I always did to always, like, tried to figure out what made people tick, like, what would make this person do something this way versus. So I had a fascination for people and behavior, and I think maybe that is what.
[01:24:05] Speaker A: That would make sense. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:24:06] Speaker B: Really? I really love the idea of helping people advance. And it.
That is something that just came naturally to me. Like, I remember when I was put in a manager role, so had my first direct report, right? I might have been all of 24, 25 years old, because we were old. Were they probably around the same age? I'm from peer to, you know, the person was my peer, which also was difficult because you were peers together, you know, at night. And now guess what? I'm your manager. Y.
But I think that was instrumental because I remember having conversation with this person for the first time. It was like, look, we, you know, have had the same job. I have no desire to, like, control you or to be the dictator. I want to help you advance.
And that's my job, is to help you succeed. And I've always looked at it that way. Like, my job as a leader is to make this thing successful. The best way of doing that is to make other. Help other people thrive. Right? Help them succeed in the best way that they can. And I've also always believed that everybody has their own individual strengths. What you're good at is different than what I'm good at, and it's different than what the other person's good at. And trying to put people in roles that would really accentuate their strengths was something that I just. Just loved to do. We had somebody come in for an interview, and, like, they were interviewing for this thing, but I actually could see them in a different role. And it used to drive my recruiting people nuts. If you finish the interview, like, I know we interviewed them for this thing, but I got an idea over here, and they're like, oh, my God. How are we gonna, like, you know, figure that out? But I love. That was one of the things that I love the most about running a business was just like. Like getting people in the door and, like, putting them in the right places to help the company thrive.
[01:26:05] Speaker A: That's so cool. And I think that that's.
That's it. Like, putting an exclamation point on if we can get addicted to that, the company can. I mean, like, the growth. I think potential is amazing.
How are you getting that? I mean, I could see it in your face. How are you getting that fixed without employees and without a team?
[01:26:31] Speaker B: The best way I can say it right now is, like, I've got some people that I'm coaching and mentoring, and that is Trying, you know, doing it vicariously through them, I guess, helping them figure that out for themselves and for the businesses that they're in. I love helping other people succeed. Right. Whether it's in my company or not. Way more fun when it's in your own company because you've got so much more.
[01:26:54] Speaker A: There's a little bit of like, I have your payroll. So there's like, hey, you know what I mean? Like, coaching another entrepreneur who can literally look at you and go, I'm not doing that. And you're like, okay, yeah.
[01:27:05] Speaker B: But with that comes the. I also don't have the responsibility angst that comes along with. Oh, maybe that person that. I thought that for that position really wasn't the right choice.
[01:27:15] Speaker A: Right.
[01:27:16] Speaker B: So there's a give and take with that. But I do miss that. I do miss that a lot. Lot. Yeah.
[01:27:21] Speaker A: So have you just, like, redeployed all your assets into other companies to, like, make yourself busy or, like, how are you balancing the new transition? Like, how. Like, any food for thought?
[01:27:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the biggest learnings in.
And everybody. I shouldn't say this.
It's. It's.
I'm sure, very well documented that before you sell your business, if you've spent your life building it, you need to figure out what your identity is outside of the business. Business.
[01:27:51] Speaker A: Thanks, Bo. Right.
[01:27:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That's right.
I cannot put more emphasis on that. Like, that is such a true statement, because I think for a lot of business owners, it's like they leave the business far before the business actually leaves them. And when I say that meaning, like, internally and, like, what takes up your mind space.
Fortunately, I am a huge learner. Like, there are so many things in my. My life that I've been passionate about but haven't been able to go deep into because I did own and run a business for so many years. So I have filled it up with learning. So, like, I've.
[01:28:28] Speaker A: What do you do? What do you. Like, what do you. What are you watching? What are you reading?
[01:28:31] Speaker B: Well, I have a master gardener certification.
My first six months.
I have. Gosh, what else? Well, the book actually took.
[01:28:41] Speaker A: I was gonna say that was probably
[01:28:42] Speaker B: a big haul, honestly. And I wrote the book partially well, mostly because I wanted, like, again, transfer wisdom that I thought, you know, if I've got it in here, I want to be able to give it out. Hopefully people. It's useful for. For people.
And, you know, I think the amount of coaching that I'm doing right now is just Kind of perfect for me because it is giving me that fix but it's also giving me like I have so much flexibility to now just
[01:29:08] Speaker A: do what I want to do and what is it? So is it exercise? Gardening?
[01:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean every day my motto is like start the day with movement. Because I used to start my day by getting out of bed, looking at the phone, hopping in meetings. Especially in a global role. I mean I was on oh my gosh 247 it seemed like so first part of the day it's slow mornings dedicated to movement. Either running or strength training or Pilates and then you know it's from there variety of things. I am volunteering for a couple of non profits but I'm. It's. It feels like they could be full time roles in some respects because in it. Right.
But yeah, I mean those are. And I've got three kids that I'm able to give like present attention to now that I wasn't able to as much before.
[01:30:02] Speaker A: Any thoughts about?
Because everything I heard you just say is experiences with your time. Oh yeah, I, I'm a huge like what we do with. I've got this life and weeks poster. Have you ever seen that?
[01:30:16] Speaker B: What is it? Oh life.
[01:30:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Megan. My wife's like you're a morbid dude. I'm like it's true. I gave myself to 100 and then I dropped dead. So like if I can get to 100 but like that's all we got. So I'm curious on like everything you just described is experience of time.
Because one of the things that I with the time cash for wealth and it's over time like so it's time. Cash for wealth over a period of time.
I think a lot of people need less than they think.
Any thoughts about like like the number target whether it's the net worth or the cash for what you need versus like what you actually value to do with your time. Because I heard gardening spend time with kids. I like any balance of that because you when if you think about the audience listening in it's like hey, I think I need to strive for this. So they're sacrificing so much of their time and it's you know, depending on who's listening and what, what age they are, it could be smaller amounts of time left. And so any thoughts about like how you're spending your time, what you need, how you think about what the goals are?
[01:31:17] Speaker B: I mean I at the beginning of this year for the first time ever I set up a like personal goals, things that I wanted to accomplish this year.
And it was things like we renovated our kitchen, right? Like, I love home renovation and like decorating and stuff like that, which again, like, haven't had the time and energy to put into it. Usually you have somebody do it for me, right?
But at the beginning of this year, I actually sat down and came up with almost like a strategic plan of by the end of this year, this is what I want to have.
[01:31:54] Speaker A: And you're having like huddle, like weekly huddle meetings with your contractors, with myself.
[01:32:01] Speaker B: But a strategic plan of, like things that I wanted to accomplish personally this year. It could be running a half marathon. It could be those types of things. And then every quarter break down. Like, where would I need to be by the end of this quarter to have this done by the end of the year?
And then looking at it monthly. But it's hard to say, like, time.
What I can say is that I value experiences and personal relationships so much more now. And that might sound crazy.
[01:32:40] Speaker A: Oh, more than before.
[01:32:42] Speaker B: Well, so much of my time before was invested in work relationships. Those were my people. Like, think about it. I owned a company that was my family in many respects. They were the people I thought about their well being, you know, are they advancing the way that they want to? Are they going to stay here? Like, my headspace was so taken up with those relationships with clients and people.
Like, I didn't even feel like I needed a ton outside of that because it was so all consuming. Not that, I mean, I have a.
[01:33:17] Speaker A: I totally get a friend group, but
[01:33:19] Speaker B: like, the amount of time now that I can invest in friendships, family, going to the grocery store and just having a casual conversation with somebody versus before, it was like, I gotta get milk, butter and eggs in, out.
Yeah, just like, like, hi, I'm Camille. Who are you?
[01:33:38] Speaker A: You're sitting there. Just.
My wife goes to the all women's gym and one of the the badass women just retired and she's like, she wants to have a conversation with me for 20 minutes every single morning. And I got to go to work.
And they're like, so you're that woman. Like, hey, what do you want to talk about?
[01:33:54] Speaker B: I got exactly right. Like, where there's so much joy that I'm getting from that kind of thing.
Eating strangers or meeting people you never even knew existed. Like, wow, I've been missing out on that. My, like the last 30 songs or even getting on a plane right before you get your seat. I got work to do. I'm gonna grab my laptop as soon As I can to start working now.
[01:34:16] Speaker A: Have you heard.
You heard what the Gen Z is calling it? No, they call it raw dogging. It where they.
They have someone. If you see people on a plane, they're sitting there with nothing.
So that's what they call. They call it you're raw dogging on a plane, which means you have no devices, no nothing, and you just sit. Sit and stare at people. It is.
[01:34:41] Speaker B: Okay. That is not what I'm talking about.
[01:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah, like, so, like the. Like. And it's so interesting. I saw a guy doing that. He just, like, was sitting there and looking like, oh, my God, that guy's just sitting there staring. Yeah, right. Wow. He walked on the plane, Camille, with nothing at all.
It was so fascinating.
[01:34:58] Speaker B: That feels great. What's that? I said that feels brave.
[01:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah. The only person I can think of that I know that would do that is Rob. Duba Bay.
[01:35:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:35:06] Speaker A: Rob's gonna go in there and just sit down on a plane and just. Yeah.
Oh, I'm so happy.
[01:35:11] Speaker B: That's. I haven't advanced that far. Sorry. Talk to me in another three years maybe. But no.
[01:35:17] Speaker A: Oh, I had so much fun.
[01:35:20] Speaker B: Oh, me too.
[01:35:22] Speaker A: I will put the link to your book in the show notes. Anything else you want to direct people towards?
[01:35:28] Speaker B: No, that would be it.
[01:35:30] Speaker A: That would be.
What do you, like, what's. What's on the agenda for 27? Like, what's your big thing?
We come back in a couple years. Like, what do you hope? What do you hope you're doing?
[01:35:40] Speaker B: It's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I honestly, right now I'm sort of open to, you know, I'm hoping to consult more, but not so much that I'm in. Like, what I don't want is for my work schedule to relegate everything else in my life. Life. I want to be busy enough helping other business owners that I'm getting personal satisfaction and they're getting value.
But that's like the cutoff, you know, when it feels like that's getting out of whack, then I'll know it. But, like, in September, I'm going to.
Oh, I'm going to Michigan State University to run an alumni panel on leadership. I think in October, I'm speaking, doing a keynote speech on, you know, it's all based on the book, but I'm hoping the book becomes a platform. Like, I so believe in the premise of this book.
[01:36:33] Speaker A: Right, right.
[01:36:34] Speaker B: And.
[01:36:34] Speaker A: Well. And you find that the book is a great entry point.
[01:36:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:36:38] Speaker A: And, like, do you feel like.
Because that's why I actually created ibd, is like. It's this. It's like. It's like. It's like a new identity. You're like, I don't have this company anymore. And it's like, almost like a little blanket.
[01:36:50] Speaker B: It's so true, because it is like you go from owning something and saying, like, what do you do? Well, I. Blah, blah.
[01:36:55] Speaker A: I used to.
[01:36:56] Speaker B: So easy. And then it becomes, yeah, well, I used to be. And it's like, oh, my God, stop saying that. Like, do something. And like, the book has. I feel like it's been able to extend my leadership influence. The thing that I love. Right. Leadership. In a completely different way, without being tied down to a desk, a computer, or meeting schedules that.
That don't give me the flexibility to go out and pursue all the other things that I want to pursue, so.
[01:37:22] Speaker A: Well, thank you very much for spending the time with me.
[01:37:24] Speaker B: You. This is such a blast.
[01:37:27] Speaker A: I had a lot of fun.
[01:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah, me too.
[01:37:29] Speaker A: All right, well, that was fun.
