Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Independence by Design podcast where we discuss what it means to be a business owner and ways to get unstuck from the day to day so we can design a business that gives us a life of independence.
So, Rich, really interested in your background because when I was on your and John's podcast, you had talked about your journey in leadership, coaching a wide variety of leaders over your career, getting started in college, pro painters. And we talked about and shout out to Jason Campana if he's listening in your your and John's experience at college propaners. And it I'm excited to unpack it because I feel like there's probably a thread there that is consistent over your career. But like, why are you passionate about leadership? Like, what. What does it mean to you? And then why did you, like, specifically call out self awareness? So however you want to kind of get us kicked off, you want to do like a little overview of yourself or you just want to jump right in, it's totally up to you.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Sure.
I'll start with the definition of leadership. In my opinion, I think it's very easy. People are following.
You're a leader if people are following and you're not, if people aren't, it doesn't matter what role you're in. It doesn't matter what your responsibility is. It doesn't matter if it's in your family, in your work life, in your church life, in the community. If people are following, you're a leader, and if they're not, you're not leading.
So the responsibility of leadership is on those who have people who are following them.
You had asked about self awareness, and that was what prompted some of this conversation. Instead of you and I just having a conversation, the two of us, about it, you said, hey, why don't we just hit record? Why don't we talk about it?
When I think about self awareness, it's the first component of emotional intelligence.
And self awareness would really be about how well do you understand your own emotion and how it impacts others.
And then emotional intelligence goes to your ability to objectively evaluate your own thoughts and behaviors and then moderate them based on what you're seeing.
So that's where I think those two things come hand in hand. And what I find is a lot of the things we find in self awareness and an understanding of our own emotions and how they impact others, they're coping mechanisms that were usually created around the age of 10 or younger that served us as children usually to be connected to love and safety.
And now we come to Find out that they don't actually work for us as well as adults.
And about 80% of using that coping mechanism does work for us and about 20% doesn't.
Once we become self aware of what those coping mechanisms are that don't serve us anymore, that we imported from childhood to being an adult and they just run an automatic in the background. Once we become aware of those, the game becomes can you identify the 20% of the time that you actually work against your own best interest by using a coping mechanism that may not belong there? Now we look at 80, 20, because it's not a light switch. We're not saying, well, you know, you always. For example, some people have a coping mechanism if they don't speak up.
And that could be because as a child every time they spoke up there was a massive pain point for them. They were told to be quiet or they were disrespected or they were bullied when they spoke up, or there's some coping mechanism that made it a brilliant thing to not speak up.
So we're not saying that. Okay, as an adult, when you need to speak up more, go from Mr. Quiet to Mr. Exuberant. We're not a light switch, it's more of a slider bar.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: So
[00:03:52] Speaker B: we're saying instead of just unconsciously not speaking up, there's 80% of the time that's okay that you don't speak up and you're not Mr. Exuberant because you wouldn't be you if you weren't doing that.
But there's 20% of the time where you need to use your voice more.
And can we identify that 20% of the time and now install different behaviors that do serve you? So that's an example of a coping mechanism I've worked on with a coaching client recently. Actually
[00:04:22] Speaker A: so much there I'm super excited to unpack. I think before we jump into leadership, emotional intelligence and every. I mean, I'm, I'm so passionate about these topics.
Why did you become so passionate about this and how did you get to these conclusions?
[00:04:43] Speaker B: I think I became passionate about it because I was invested in. And it started early in high school with a mentor who was an English teacher. And then it moved into college with a guy who was my RA in college, who also happened to be the president of the fraternity I joined.
And then it moved into College Pro, as you mentioned earlier, College Pro Painters, where I got self awareness from them on how I was showing up that worked for me and how I was showing up in ways that didn't work for me.
One of the things I've come to find out is I don't know how to talk other than confidently.
And that works for me. 80% of the time. 20% of the time, it doesn't.
Areas where it doesn't work for me is when I'm in a creative spot with people and we're just. We're just bouncing ideas off of each other, and people think I'm really convicted with my idea. And it's like, no, I'm actually like, that was just a thought. Like, we don't have to go with that.
So I have found. I have had, for example, to say to people, hey, I'm only about 20% baked on this, and I'm 80% open. Or I'll say, you know, I'm just looking to polish something up. I'm not super open about, you know, changing everything about what I'm about to tell you about, but I'd like to polish it up a little. So I have to. I've learned I have to.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: You think out loud. Do you think out loud, too?
[00:06:17] Speaker B: At times? That's. That'd be also another.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because there is. I'm totally digressing. Well, not digress. Yeah, just totally, like, grab it onto what you're saying. I was laughing because I. I've gotten into massive problems because I. I landed on the. I've got the same tendencies, and it's.
I have to say, it's 80 baked, 20 baked, and it released a lot of tension in my life, but also, I think out loud, so it just exacerbates the problem.
So,
[00:06:47] Speaker B: yeah,
[00:06:47] Speaker A: just fascinating that. That's why I was laughing, but very, very fascinating. So what did you do with that information then?
Like, how did that
[00:06:54] Speaker B: ripple? You know, coming back to thinking out loud part, I have recognized that when I do the thinking out loud, I'm burning other people's ears to explore my own thoughts.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Welcome to my podcast, Rich.
Now, you don't tell anybody.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Yes.
And I've worked with. I. I have what I would call compensatory skills for that. And, like, what do I do to compensate? And I've worked with clients on those. Also things like being aware that when we're exploring our own thoughts, our first thought may not be our best thought.
And by the time we get through our first thought to our second, to our third, our best might be our fourth, and we've already burnt our listening attention.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: Oh, man. That. That has all.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: So. So they were listening really well on the first and second thought. That weren't.
And then they were kind of tuned out by the time you got to your best. So one of the things that I'll do is I'll take notes on some of my thoughts while I'm listening and then I'll select the best thought to share instead of the first thought.
So that would be an example of something else that I do. And, you know, I didn't come with a prepackaged list of things I'll share with Ryan, but, you know, as we continue to talk, I'd love to hear some of yours on what do you do to compensate against your nature? That doesn't work for you and when does that show up? And I'm obviously more than happy to share some that I've found.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
Definitely happy to continue rallying on that. And I'll. I'll address yours in a second, but we can close the loop real quick. So your desire as you're getting these mentors and like you, before we go into all of the different tentacles. Because I love these. Rich. Because I've had my own journey. I'm curious on like, as you were, I think about almost like levels of consciousness.
Like, you were. You were experiencing these people. So, like, what was the feedback loop that allowed you to realize that this was a thing? So you said you're using half baked or third baked or, you know, in creative. Creative versus not with your certainty. Like, how did that then translate into, like, what you were doing with your career and how you were perceiving leadership?
[00:09:15] Speaker B: Interesting. I. I'll go deep.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Okay. Love it.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: I'm 51 now, and these realizations don't stop the older we get. I think the gift of getting older is a gift of knowing ourselves better.
And the reason I say that is it was probably just five or six years ago that I realized what I'll share with you about my journey and leadership, that when I was growing up, I was excluded from a lot because I'm not the most athletic person. I can't catch a ball the best. I'm not the fastest runner.
I don't hit a baseball the best. I don't kick a soccer ball the best. So it didn't matter what it was. I was either picked last or second to last on a schoolyard draft pick.
And that didn't feel great.
So what I came to learn in leadership is that if I start the group, you can't exclude me.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: If I'm leaving the group, you can't kick me out and make me feel unwanted.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Now I didn't know this until five or six years ago when I'm reflecting on just my journey and it occurred to me, wow, why was I so into leadership at a young age? Why was I really into it all the way back in high school when I was co directing church youth group plays with my youth pastor and I'm co directing adults. Why was I doing volunteer work for people who English was a second language and doing it unpaid because I just enjoyed it so much. I was in a leadership role. Well, why did that connect with me so well? Because leadership was a path to inclusion for me and it was a way that I could be accepted well as part of the group because it wasn't going to be on the schoolyard draft pick.
So I've developed a career in hindsight now of finding more and more leadership positions. I remember Ryan, when I was, when I was interviewing to be an RA myself, resident assistant at Eastern Illinois University.
And it was a group interview and they asked what's probably a standard question. He said, well, why are you wanting this role of being a resident assistant managing the 50 people on the floor? Why are you wanting this other than the money?
My answer was 100% genuine.
Said you get paid for this.
I didn't know you got paid for this.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: I just wanted to do it because I wanted to be in a leadership role. I wanted to be developed, I wanted to lead others, I wanted to help others.
And wow, how much do you get paid for this?
Was my answer in the interview. So I have found a lifetime of being drawn to want to be in leadership roles. Last thing I'll share with you, then I'll. Then I'll take a pause. It was just last year I did the Grand Canyon. Did rim to river to rim in a day. It was, did
[00:12:18] Speaker A: you all. I heard that. I heard that's crazy.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: It was awesome. I did it with one of my. Another mentor of mine named Jeff Rendell.
And Jeff is a multi time Iron Man.
So he was in front of a group of a few people. My wife Shelby was one of the people that went on it with us also. So he was leading. He had done this 10 times before, more than that actually. And he has the Iron man logo on the back of his calf.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: So
[00:12:47] Speaker B: it went Jeff, it went me. And then there were three other people, my wife one of them.
And the whole time while I'm watching Jeff in front of me, I'm watching his Iron man logo
[00:12:58] Speaker A: bounce up and down. Yeah.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: And I'm, and I'm behind Him.
And I noticed the gap between Jeff and me, and I was kind of slowing the group down a little bit. Well, we got to a point of breaking, and Jeff said, hey, Rich, why don't you go ahead and go out front on this one and I'll just keep up with you?
I said, okay, no problem, Ryan. I went remarkably faster when I was in the leading role, despite the fact I should not have been leading. I'd never done the Grand Canyon before. Jeff's an iron man. I'm not an iron man shape.
I wasn't the right person to be leading, but I was going faster when I was leading than following someone who is seasoned.
It wasn't the right role for me. It was a misapplied place where I'm compelled to lead even when I shouldn't be the leader.
So this is one of those things that I have to pay attention to.
Is, is this a spot where I really should be leading? Because I know I have a compulsion to lead.
So even in the idea of, hey, what. You know, what got you so driven? Leadership. What was. What was a feedback loop? What got you attracted to that?
It's like, well, let me tell you. And let me tell you how I misapply that too.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: So I.
So fascinating as couple questions here, like, why five years ago? And like, what was the. What was the.
Aha.
And then maybe as a second part of that question, I don't know, maybe this is embedded in. There is.
I can. And I'll be happy to share with you some of my childhood too, because, like, you're like, it all. It all comes up, right?
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: As you go from the person that's left out to a person in leadership, how did you avoid becoming the tyrannical overlord to push down to the people that are underneath you, the essentially the reparations that you were trying to dish out from your childhood. Because. Because there's a potential of getting into those leadership roles and not being a leader that's self aware, that's being selfless and using it in the wrong way.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
Why five or six years ago? I'm not sure. I think I'm.
I'm constantly doing self assessments. If you told me, hey, here's an assessment I've done that's really cool. You learn about yourself and be like, I'll take it this afternoon.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I totally. Fortune cookie.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't remember what it is that created that moment of a realization, but I'm constantly searching for them.
Your second question on the tyrannical leadership I wouldn't say that I wasn't.
I would say as I became more self aware and I'm not perfect at it, it is always a work in progress. And I'm telling you, I'm constantly learning about my nature and how it works for me and doesn't.
But as I started this journey of self awareness that was probably just about 15 years ago or so I started, I realized that maybe I was more of the tyrannical leader, that I made things more about me than I did other people, that I made things more about my opinion and I needed to be right instead of getting it right.
And I felt like at the time every idea I had needed to be defensible because it was my idea and this was all subconscious. Right.
And having gone on a journey of educating myself and self assessments and feedback and all of that has, has built to now, I would say not being that tyrannical leader and being more learner centered. There was a podcast I listened to by Tony Robbins that had Stanley McChrystal on it. General Stanley McChrystal, really good podcast. And he wrote a book called Team of Teams.
And he talked about the military on how it's designed in a pyramid shape. The smartest person is at the top who puts orders down and the military wins based on having a bigger pyramid, who follows the orders and how the information goes up to the smart person at the top.
And during his time in the military, they went up against Al Qaeda and they were losing.
They couldn't figure it out. Well, we have intelligence. It rolls up fast, it commands that roll down quick and people follow and we have a bigger pyramid. And. And they weren't working on a pyramid shape. They were working on more of a cellular shape where there was no one single leader. And everything went on speed of information.
And the. If there was anyone who was in a leadership role, it was to connect information between the different subgroups.
So they did that really well.
Al Qaeda did well. The military found that out and they changed. After however many years of running in this pyramid shape, they changed and they figured out how to run that team of teams better than Al Qaeda did, which is when they started winning again.
So I took that and Stanley McChrystal you can hire as a keynote speaker to come to talk to companies. He takes his military background and applies it to business and leadership.
And I took that
[00:18:44] Speaker A: program. What's the name of the program? I think one of my clients just hired him.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: I. It might be Team of Teams. Okay.
[00:18:50] Speaker A: Do you think that's what it is.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: And
[00:18:53] Speaker B: I took that and ran with it. That when I was in a leadership role and I was responsible for some pieces of the business that I didn't know very well.
So it forced me to lead in a way that was not tyrannical, that I didn't have all the answers, and I knew I didn't have all the answers. And it. I became the conduit between the people who did have the answers to connect them well, to be able to make good decisions in their lane.
So that was a podcast I listened to that became a moment of reflection in changing how I led.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Do you journal every day or meditate? What's your practices that you integrate into your weekly?
I
[00:19:32] Speaker B: wish I journaled every day. I don't.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: I shouldn't have said every day. Do you have, like, other practices that help you synthesize your thoughts?
[00:19:40] Speaker B: I journal from time to time.
I meditate several times weekly.
I have a. An EMDR machine. I don't know if you're familiar with that, that
[00:19:50] Speaker A: they.
[00:19:50] Speaker B: It vibrates the paddles on the hand back and forth. It stimulates the right and left side of the brain. So I'll do that. That will completely reset me to be able to be present.
Yeah. So there are a few things that I'll do to be able to be present. I've learned me working at my best isn't always me collecting my thoughts. Sometimes me working at my best is just being present and believing that I'm enough. I don't need to have the answers. I need to have good questions. And if I have something worthwhile to contribute, I will. And if I don't, I can ask questions to help somebody else explore their own thoughts in ways they wouldn't have without me.
So I work on being present more than I do collecting and organizing my own thoughts these days.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: That's interesting. I think it's a balance where, like, it's like if you theorize without doing, you can talk about the Ferrari, you can analyze a Ferrari, you can design a Ferrari, but sometimes you got to go get in the effing car and go drive it.
[00:20:49] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: It's just like. You know what I mean? So it's a. It's a. It's a balance between those two, I think.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: It's interesting. Have you ever found you're familiar with Alan Watts?
[00:21:00] Speaker B: No.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: Oh, he's a. That's a rabbit hole that you would probably. Oh, yeah.
A lot about enlightenment, stoicism, like, I mean, trying to think of Carl. I mean, New Age Carl. Young. I mean, he. He was around in like the 70s and 80s. He's been passed. But he talks a lot about awakening and flowing and being present and all of the stuff, probably that you would love to. But he even warns against becoming addicted to becoming present and signaling that you're becoming present. Like, the whole thing is such a balance to your point where it's just a practice. Like, because all of a sudden you start realizing that, like, oh, my God, like, you're the observer of the observed. And like, then you can signal that you're that and signal that you're light enlightened. And next thing you know, your ego has wrapped up around the fact that you have no ego. And so it's.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Yes,
[00:21:47] Speaker A: it's just like
[00:21:48] Speaker B: a
[00:21:48] Speaker A: fascinating. Just kind of like you. It always just nests. Like it's just a daily, daily practice. Like. Okay. Right here, right now.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah. It's almost taking the idea of being present too far.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: It's exactly what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, like, you just. Because, like, it's a lot about, you know, dismissing your ego and being present and then. But like the fact that other people, like, recognize and like, that then can become the signal and the ego actually is still there. So.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah,
[00:22:17] Speaker A: fascinating.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: I see that. I see that. Tell me about.
Well, I have a question for you. Are you familiar with the concept of shadow and projection?
[00:22:27] Speaker A: I believe so. Why don't you give me your. What your definitions of it and I. You talking about, like, shadow self.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Yeah, Carl. Carl Young started the work.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me just do this right here because I got it Rich.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah. You got a book on him.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Here it is.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Oh, I love it.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: The Big Red Book. Man, I
[00:22:45] Speaker B: love that.
Tell me about.
With your understanding of shadow and projection, what is an element of your shadow that you find yourself projecting? And if you want me to refresh you on, why
[00:22:58] Speaker A: don't you do it for the audience?
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Okay. So shadow is the repressed part of our personality that ends up showing up in ways that we didn't intend.
So things we don't like about ourselves.
And then projection is putting that on others. And there are two sides of shadow. There's a dark side that is the one that's often talked about where we put things on people that they don't own. We actually do. And then there's actually the light side of the shadow is where we put things on, or the golden shadow where we put things on people they don't own, but they're positive attributes.
So people often do that with somebody who's a a sports figure or someone who's an actor and they're like, oh I really like that person. They must be a good dad. They must be a great business person. And you're starting to put things on people they don't own. But it's really about things that you wish you were
[00:23:54] Speaker A: and
[00:23:54] Speaker B: it's been repressed.
So I'm curious the, the place to look for this is what are some things that when you see them in others they absolutely drive you up a wall. And I'll, and I'll tell you where we're going with this is we will explore.
You may actually have a piece of that in you as much as you may want to deny it. Which is exactly what drives you up a wall about it is you detest that you have that piece of you in you. So you're very sensitive to other people having it, can see it better than anyone else around you and it actually repulses you more than anybody else. Other people see it but they're not as reactionary to it. Therefore it's something that is more about you than them.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: Is
[00:24:41] Speaker B: there something that you find yourself really annoyed with with other people on a regular basis?
[00:24:50] Speaker A: People that complain about doing it, don't do anything about it.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: That's like my number one pet peeve.
If you want to answer ask follow up questions you can. But I think if I were to give you maybe like at the risk of talking too much, I can give you my kind of
[00:25:08] Speaker B: talk too much. Go for it.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: The articulate like the shadow self. Because Carl Young versus what was the guy, Freud. Right. Carl Young's the OG that should be at the focal point of all of the academics. But we won't go down that route.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: Talks about integration of the shadow self and I think that that is part of my self awareness journey. Rich. And so for in stop and fill in the audience if I'm saying this wrong but like the meek will inherit the earth was an interesting phrase because everybody thinks it's like the, the weak people will just like be everywhere. But the, the, the meek apparently means like sheath your sword where like you have all of the power but you sheath your sword and you choose not to use it.
It's actually what that means. And that like what that means to me is that like coming from like Carl Young thought process is like I know I'm capable of total horrible things as a human being. Ego driven what all of my horse tendencies tendencies are I know I'm capable of miserable horrible things and it's my job to integrate that into an ongoing life that is meaningful. And so instead of compartmentalizing it and then suppressing it and then dealing with it. So, like, and I think that's one of the tendencies of people projecting or not knowing that 20% that you were talking about the 2080.
So my journey has been total integration with myself and, like, being okay with it and how I. The cliff note of how I think I got here. I also unpacking this every day, and I'm learning about myself every day.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Use my ears, Ryan.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: What's that?
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Use my ears.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: So keep
[00:26:52] Speaker B: going.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: Yeah, use my ears.
My wife has never said that, by the way.
Oh, that's too funny.
You know, you talked about you. Your being the last picked. I don't know for a fact, but I'm pretty sure I'm some. So some sort of dyslexic dyslexia. It's not just seeing words backwards. Like, Rich, if I were to summarize my childhood, it's like, yes, I was very, very social and I had a load of friends.
And I think that was a byproduct. I would be sitting in class. Rich.
I mean, what the is everyone looking at this person up front about? I have no idea what they're saying.
I missed the first couple things. Everyone's just blindly listening to this person. No one's asked, like, do we need to know this? Why are we learning about dudes in white that are black and white and wigs? What's going on here? Why do we need to know? And everybody would say, shh, pay attention and do this. And so like, I, like, I can't spell. I can't. No grammar. Like, it's all horrible for me. So then it would be like looking around and being like, what's everyone paying attention to and why?
What does the leader in that room, the teacher judge everybody on? What are their morals and values and how are they going to judge this test? Because I need to befriend them and I need to get the goodwill. So when they're grading the paper, they give me an out. And so,
[00:28:22] Speaker B: like,
[00:28:22] Speaker A: the whole schooling system for me was gamification around incentives, personalities, sociability. And so the more friends that I had, the more people that liked me, the easier it was for me. Because everything else, academic wise, was a.
And so that became, you know, soccer captain, all the other stuff. But where that did not serve me down, you know, in the past, was the.
I started watching leaders.
And so many are hypocrites and tyrannical overlords. So I have an absolute allergic reaction to people that say things and don't do what they say they're going to do. And then they tell other people to do things, but they don't do them. So like if at the root of independence is like, if someone's gonna say something, you better back it up with the action. Otherwise I will. Like, that's where like so the biggest, like with my shadow self, Rich, if I start to resent someone, it swallows me alive like a dragon. Like I can't stand that emotion. And I every up thing that's ever happened in my life is because I let that resentment bubble up.
And it was like the resentment of like maybe it was not understanding or my relationship with that leader, all the different things. But like what I learned was that resentment became the grossness or whether it was a resentment towards an expert that would just not explain why, or an attorney or authority figure that would, would do the wrong thing or be a hypocrite or not tell me why. And so, and that became delinquent. You know, I was a delinquent, but I was also the church camp or the, the counselor, the confirmation leader. So I had this like yin and yang of like the Carl Jung, you're like shadow stuff not. And through the years it was like trying to integrate that.
Because what I learned is the resentment that I would put on to other, like for others. It's like what, like everybody's living their own life. Like no one's thinking about me.
And so it was me.
And that's like that whole Taylor Swift, I live in a household, girls, me, I'm
[00:30:31] Speaker B: like.
[00:30:32] Speaker A: And it was, I was the problem. And so what I learned was if I just do the hard work, I will avoid that. And when I say avoid that, it's like have the hard conversation.
Because what I learned is like if I resented myself, which is where it all ended. And that's probably part of your projection. So I've overcome this, I think, and it's still a work in progress. But if I do something that I know to be wrong and then that eventually catches up to me, there's no one on this planet that will be worse to me than me at all. And so like I might as well do it now. It's like, okay, do the hard work, go to the gym, like say the hard conversation. Because when I avoid those things, I end up resenting myself, which ends up being just self loathing and self hate and you're spitting God in the face and all These different things. So, like, it was this whole journey of like getting to that point, of just being aware of this, to your point. Like, and for me, like kind of the cliff note would be, is I did.
It was a lot of. I think the health journey really started helping a long time ago. I've done. I started meditation. We maybe want to go down the road. I did a bunch of plant medicine and have for 15 years.
So plant medicine people. Michael Pollan if people don't know what I'm talking about.
And so like, that is like a whole another probably four hour podcast of just like in like the. As the summary when I got to the point where there was like this meditation app where they said, okay, if. If your thoughts are the cars on a highway and you're sitting to the side of the highway, you're watching your thoughts go by, but you are not your thoughts. But what happened is in meditation, you would like grab a car and then you'd be flown, you know, down the highway. Like, wait a second, why am I thinking about my second grade teacher? You know, I mean, like, and just realizing that, like, we're up here observing our thoughts and it's like this whole video game that we're in and like, so like really thinking about life through the lens of we're in this meat suit, living our life, having fun.
The experience is the point. Relativity is the point. So, like, really understanding that whole game, understanding the shadow stuff has hopefully allowed me to not project.
And I literally tattooed empathy on my arm.
So that way when I get mad, it's like, oh, this is probably a me thing.
Because of that projection of the resentment or the crabbiness that I have towards others was somehow like, it's not them, it's me. So I don't know.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I dot that I may have connected. But it's your journey for you to say whether this connects or not.
The school experience you had that you said, I think I may have dyslexia there. And I was questioning things and I was told, you know, be quiet, just follow along.
And at that point you learned in order to get a good grade, in order to be accepted, that you had to be quiet and follow along.
And that's something you learned as a coping mechanism that my guess is at some point flowing into adulthood, you rejected that part and said, hey, I don't want to just follow along anymore. I actually, I hate that part of myself where I just follow along, where I complain about things and I don't follow through because my nature is actually to not follow through. Because I was conditioned that way to try to keep dyslexia small and keep my voice smaller and to not follow through on all of my thoughts. And I just have to do. And then you started now and you would say, today you still. When you see people complain about things and say they'll do things and not follow through, you absolutely detest that. But what you actually detest is the part of you that you know that that's part of your wiring, that there is part.
And complain about things and not do things or declare things and not follow through. That's how you grew up. And it was a coping mechanism.
So you living a more integrated life may acknowledge that and you may not be doing as much projecting, but they're still in a moment of not having self awareness. The compulsion to just harpoon people who do this thing that you don't like about yourself.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: And what I did to avoid those situations is I designed an entire operating system so I can communicate with others just like you.
[00:35:09] Speaker B: Like
[00:35:10] Speaker A: and like and literally. Rich. It's so funny because I say, Andrew Huberman's got this wonderful quote that I love where I will not tell you what to do. I just want you to know what you're doing and that's what. And I truly mean that because I have found so much grace in like the.
I believe that we are all here as children of God to actually. And we are part of God where the whole point is for God to experience itself.
Like, we need the constraints of life and our physical body to be out away from the Creator so we can actually experience life.
So if that is true, then by telling anybody else what to do, we're actually robbing them from the gift of life.
And so like, I have to constantly remember this all, all this stuff to your point. Because, like, that is. If that's the truth, which I think it is at the moment, it's like, well, then you doing your stuff is how you learn about who you are. So me robbing you of that is actually robbing God of the entire point of life.
So learning this is all like. And that's where, like, I do find insanity. And like Carl Young and Alan Watts and people like, it's the schizophrenic. Like, I am the observer and the observed.
And it's like once, like it. It's just a wild constant, like matrix. Like, you're constantly aware of the matrix. And like ignorance is bliss sometimes. But then like. So then what I have to constantly do is be like, okay, if Someone's complaining about this, they don't see certain things. And what I landed on with the business operating system was like the ownership operations like Time, Cash for Wealth, like most people don't see their trade offs. So I'm trying to give people grace and say, hey, here's how things actually work so that way they can be empowered to say, oh, I do want this versus that. And I didn't know there was a trade off. And I think that that is a lack of understand.
And so what I try to do is say like, okay, if we can give them the red pill and be. Have them be aware of the game, then it's essentially being around people that like to that are more than happy to deal with a trade off instead of denying it.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: I will say I agree with you, but for the spirit of philosophical debate, let me preface this with I agree with you in that we shouldn't be telling people what to do. We can make suggestions, but we shouldn't be telling people what to do. It's.
They need to discover what to do on their own and have their own learning lessons. Which is why there's a difference between coaching and consulting.
Coaching is the practice of self discovery with someone you're working with. Consulting is I have some answers I want to give you and impart on you that would make sense if you were to follow them.
So I agree with what you're saying. But at the same time, when I heard you say to tell them what to do is actually robbing them, my immediate reaction was, is it?
Or is someone who lives a life who is never told what to do by anyone, is that actually robbing them? And isn't having an experience where some people do tell you what to do, but you have to be whole in and of yourself and make your own decisions about what to do. Isn' life, therefore not telling them what to do at its extreme would actually be robbing them of the opportunity to practice being whole and making their own decisions.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: I would agree with that modification of those words.
And I think the Socratic approach helps. We're like, so instead of saying you should, it's I've been in that situation or something similar to that. Here's what I did, here's what I learned, here's what I think could be useful to you. So it's less maybe because I agree with you. Like, I want to know. That's why I like the podcast, because people tell me their life experiences and I want to learn. And I think that you're, you're correct like my children, if we didn't tell them what to do, I mean like good luck, like they would be a mess. Right. So I think there is a balance and I think sharing what's worked, what the consequences of different actions are and say like Rich, you've said that you value these things.
Here's your tradeoff. You're going this direction.
It seems to be that you're, it's counterproductive. My, my facetious joke is like if someone wants to r an iron man and they're not going to the gym and they're going into McDonald's smoking cigarettes every day, I'm not going to say don't do that. But I have a pretty good guess that what you're doing is not going to get you to what you said you wanted.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with that. It you brought up the Socratic method and I think a lot of people, there's a Socratic method of sales and there's a Socratic method of coaching. And I think where we can get in trouble with a Socratic method is where we believe we already have the answer.
And through questions we're guiding them to the answer that we already had versus using a Socratic method where there's openness and there are many
[00:40:25] Speaker A: curiosity.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: And I'm doing it for your ability for self discovery. I'm asking you questions for your self discovery. Not so I could understand. I'm actually asking you questions so you can understand.
And it's not guiding you to any predetermined place. But I think a lot of people who use a Socratic method, I find they're guiding them to a predetermined place and it's actually manipulation.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: It's. And it's also. Yeah, I like how you said it's manipulation and it's patronizing.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: And it's really interesting because I, I was reading Dial the dialogue of Plato, whatever the hell. It's like the, it's a blue book but it's all of Plato's.
I don't know,
[00:41:10] Speaker B: like scripts, journaling
[00:41:11] Speaker A: all. It's all of Plato's from.
Anyways, like what Listen, like actually reading that back to kind of the Alan Watts saying, like if it's done from a genuine place of love for the self discovery and the curiosity and the pursuit of truth for both individuals, it's beautiful. But otherwise if it's done through someone wanting to hear their own voice, wanting to feel the manipulate, you know, I mean like, like the same power could be used in two totally different ways. I think it's very fascinating.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: I took a class on the power of persuasion and the guy that taught me his name is Jim McBrayer and he, I, I'll give you the pop quiz that he gave us.
What's the difference between manipulation and persuasion?
Because on the surface the tactics are very similar if not identical. But what's the differ. And it's a one word answer.
If you don't know, you could say you don't know or you could guess. It's a one word answer difference between manipulation and persuasion.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Intention,
[00:42:15] Speaker B: intent.
It's exactly it. Because if your intent is for the best interests of the person in front of you, then that would be persuasive. You're persuading them to do something in their best interest.
If your intent is something you want to conceal
[00:42:33] Speaker A: that
[00:42:33] Speaker B: you could not actually disclose. Here's why I'm doing this. Here's why I'm asking you these questions. Here's where I'm trying to get you. If you can't disclose that, that's manipulation.
So that's where I think in leadership, it's good to do leadership with people and not to people.
And what that means is we tell people what we are trying to do. Hey Ryan, I want to work with you. You said you wanted to do XYZ and you're struggling to do it. I'd like to explore with you what's in the way in an effort to find something I can hold you accountable to that might help you to do what you said you wanted to do. Would you be up for going on this journey? That's an example, a role play of bring someone in instead of asking questions, finding the thing, setting accountability points. Tell them here's the journey I want to take you on. Are you up for that? Now we can work together
[00:43:32] Speaker A: to
[00:43:32] Speaker B: get you there. Instead of like I'm doing all the work is the coach and you're kind of the subject I'm doing it to.
Let's work together and I'll tell you where I'm trying to get you and make sure you're bought in.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: I love it. And what's. What I heard is because of the methods being so similar and intent being kind of the which is in our soul and it's the intent is driven based off of our own individual values and our own individual childhood and all this that we're talking about.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Yeah,
[00:44:07] Speaker A: let me, let me add to this or like what I think is so fascinating is like because I, I had so much more. I have and continue to have, but started my passion with. I mean, with whether it was church and religion or whether it was business or whatever it was, it was very feeling based because of what I was saying about my school. You know, my, my early child. It's like all I'm watching body language and energy, like, like, that's because I. Because I didn't understand the multiple choice. So then what I. What I.
What I struggle with then though, Rich, was because I didn't have the academic knowledge that so many people grew up with. I didn't actually, like, I was still missing this, like, this base layer I think of like, okay, so I'm reading all the people, but like, and I'm really good at reading people and behavior and understanding, I mean, sales, all that stuff.
But I was missing the.
What's actually driving everybody's behavior.
And so, like, I went through this journey and it was right around like 16 or 17 where like, I was essentially, I got kind of sucked into this church where it was like, very, very, like, spiritual, like tongues and demons and all this kind of stuff. Like, like very religious and very, very. And like, my dad had. He took me out of town. He's like, here's the deal.
You can do whatever you want, but, like, question everything, Ryan.
Lo and behold, at the age of 16, question everything, Ryan. And here I am turning 40 next month. And like, that's all I do is like, are you sure? What about this?
So what I. But what I've done, Rich, and it's this fascinating journey where I have come full circle, where all of my beliefs are still what they are, but I can intellectually prove them all, which is just exhausting as where I. I look at all the people, I'm like, they just believe. Wouldn't that be nice? And. But what I. What where I landed with it or what I did in light of that was what are the incentive structures? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back to what you were saying about that person. The intent of m. Manipulation versus Persuasion is I would be looking at the tyrannical overlords that I think are all over the place. Like, P. I. I'm so fascinated with power structures. And I'm like, 90 of these people are idiots.
Like, what is going on here? There are no adults. No one has a freaking plan. No one knows what's going on.
Pull that thread. It's the money. It's always the money. And then it's like, oh, did you know that it's actually the discounted cash flow, the weighted average Cost of capital is sitting on a board and the board has proxies and the proxy and like, and then there's. There's a vote and there's five versus two, and those five people win.
And whoever has the most money and most power, win, wins. And so it's all boards, it's all proxies, and all these votes based on money.
And so I. And like, so what I had to do is because I couldn't determine, like, if you, for example, were my boss back in the day.
I had no idea whether you were lying to me or not.
And I think every. I think that there is such a trust recession in the economy because the fiat machine has eaten alive everybody.
And this is why I landed on. Hey, by the way, you can't print money into oblivion because you corrupt all of society.
It's a moral hazard that is like, I believe every single part of all of the cultural issues that we have is because we think as a culture we can get something for nothing. The only, like, the root of all of this is the Federal Reserve that has one entry accounting. You and I went to double entry accounting school.
And it's like, well, that's because they're stealing from everybody by actual mathematical definition. And it's totally insane to me that no one sees this. And so, like, what I ended up doing, Rich is going like, okay, because, like, what? To give you an idea back to like, probably all of my childhood stuff is like, okay, like, let's say you were that boss.
It's like, okay, are you a private equity owner? You an esop owned. What's the board structure? You know, what's the partnership structure? Who's got the capital? Is the debt? Is it equity? All that? And it's like, oh, Rich is a good guy. He's totally neutered.
You're a CEO making 500 grand. You're a total. You're a cog in the wheel. No one cares. You go totally bend down to the people behind the scenes and you have to come lie to me because otherwise you don't have a job.
And like, my.
It's. And this is where the bad part of Ryan comes out. We're like, I resent that situation so much, I can't even describe it because everyone's pretending that that's not the case. And so I'm back there at my fourth grade, Brian going, everyone's just going, this is fine. And I'm like, no, it's not fine. Rich is pretending that he has control. He doesn't have Any control. He's then lying to the chief financial officer where we have to take the money and we have to put it to the debt and we have to fire all the people because the Ohio's teachers pension fund needs the money, and everyone's going to pretend this is not the case. And there's 400 people that are crabby and they're going back to their spouses, and they're mad at their spouses because they didn't get their bonus. And like.
And like, I've had to, like, as you can see, I get so worked up, and I have to go, okay. I want to carve out my little part of society to deal with genuine people that are.
[00:49:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: Telling the truth.
All the scars with being telling the truth, that they're vulnerable. Like, I don't know everything.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: Who are willing to objectively evaluate themselves where they don't have to be right.
They just want to have conversation. And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong, and they're just willing to put it on the table. And two pieces of media that I've consumed that I might recommend. One is a podcast guest that we had, Randy Soma, who wrote the book Leadership.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: Leadership.
Yeah, already.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: And his. His book is all about the boardroom that doesn't follow the values hanging on the wall when the going gets tough and they follow the money.
It's. It's a.
Unfortunately, a very accurate portrayal of what happens in back rooms.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
[00:50:20] Speaker B: And the other one would be, have you seen the World Changing Order? The video on YouTube? That's a ray Dalio video.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: I mean, back here, my books. I've got every money book I read. Ray Dallas, Changing World Order three times, two years ago.
[00:50:35] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:50:36] Speaker A: Like the actual book. Yeah. I mean, and I could add to, like, four dozen other books about.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: And that. That the video walks through. I think it's like 45 or 50 minutes. And it walks through the 500 years of cyclical evolution and the eight different points of power that you could track for world currency and where the United States is today and how printing money is impacting it. And yeah, it's.
It's very interesting stuff. And it repeats itself.
[00:51:08] Speaker A: And that gave me, like, understanding all of this in the last five or six years, Rich has given me so much peace because, like.
Like just understand, like, the waves are going to hit and they go in waves in the ocean, like, but you can't stop it.
Right. It is. It's that much of a ingrained first principle. Like, humans are actually the problem like so we have gold and Bitcoin. Gold was always the soundest currency. It's on the periodic table. We go to the whole on conversation about why that was. Now you have Bitcoin.
I think I went through this whole like Austrian economics and came like, just like, okay, like that's the way to do it. And then I was like, wait a second. But there's always going to be people and people always want something for nothing and they're always going to make fractional reserves on top of that sound money. And then there's always going to be power struggles.
And then like it's still like been this weird. Okay, what do I do about that then? And like in. Because I had, at the summit that I had like we were at this little conversation one of the evenings and because it went from big macro, all that stuff to I was able to give them all like my exact day to day operating system for myself and for my business and for my life and my decisions that I change based on that big thing.
And then like, and that's, I think what we're trying to do is take the big picture and all the way down to the low picture while being self aware. And like I just find it interesting because I had a guy, he wrote the imperfect CEO and the imperfect board. Remember, have you ever heard Brown is his name? And I think that all of these structures were like that board that makes the decision for the money first.
Even though they've got the values up on the, on the cafeteria wall, it's their fiduciary obligation. That's how the whole world works. So like I think that that is where so many people have to lie to themselves which the moment we start lying to ourselves, our morality starts to crumble. And so like to really be sovereign means like where are we getting our money?
So that way we can be self aware and actually hold true to our values. Because otherwise, I mean if you're making a half a million bucks, you got two denalities in your garage and your house is worth a million bucks. Can't afford the H vac technician, you can't speak up.
And that's where I watched Rich and I don't, I'm really, I really want to hear your thoughts on this. Is like what I believe I have come to this awareness of, which is just saddening to me is like 95 of people have self censored themselves and they actually can't do anything about it, which makes me really sad.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: Interesting. That's a similar number. I would Use. There's no clinical research behind it at all.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I just made that up out of my.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:09] Speaker B: But I'd go.
Probably 95 of people have limited self awareness and there's probably 80% of those who have an opportunity to become self aware may not have the right people in their environment to deliver the truth to them in a way that they would receive it or accept it or it would be.
So what you end up finding is we live in a world of people who are avatars of their childhood coping mechanisms where they think they're actually making the decisions,
[00:54:49] Speaker A: but
[00:54:50] Speaker B: it's actually the 10 year old in them that made coping mechanisms to keep them safe and connected to love.
They're reacting with that.
And you know, it's the whole. You've read man's search for meaning.
[00:55:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: So the whole separation of stimulus from response or stimulus from reaction and creating that moment of pause where we can insert a response. That's this whole thing about higher consciousness and self awareness is instead of being that avatar of our childhood coping mechanisms, when we're triggered to do something, pausing, it's the only door out. The only door out is pause. Put a pause between something happening in you. Reacting.
[00:55:36] Speaker A: Yeah,
[00:55:36] Speaker B: you have to pause whatever the pause is, leave the room, count to 10,
[00:55:40] Speaker A: take a breath,
[00:55:41] Speaker B: deep breaths, feel the feet underneath you, you know, the, the earth, whatever it is. Use something to pause, separate something happened, and I am now going to react. In that pause is where all of the choice rests. Where now we are not just walking reactions. We can select a response
[00:56:03] Speaker A: and
[00:56:03] Speaker B: a response that's consistent with our values, that's consistent with what is in the higher order, best interest of everybody involved and in ways that we could be proud of ourselves. And we end up not apologizing.
If you often find yourself apologizing for how you reacted to something, it's a good indicator that maybe a pause would work.
[00:56:25] Speaker A: You need like one of those little rubber binders. So you just put yourself on.
[00:56:29] Speaker B: Yeah, like time to pause, time to pause. You know, Ryan, we, we often, we can't change our impulse reaction.
For example, you can't change the fact that somebody that commits to something and doesn't follow through, you have a impulse reaction to. You can't change that reaction often, but you can use the reaction as a cue to create a pause instead of using the reaction to act on it. Use the reaction go, oh, there I am. I feel tightness in my chest, I feel heat in my face. My hands are starting to, you know, get some tension in them Those are my physical indicators of this reaction to people who just say things and don't follow through.
That means pause.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: You know, what's. Now
[00:57:18] Speaker B: what do I do?
[00:57:20] Speaker A: And I think that that takes so much practice. And what I have learned is it becomes this. Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear?
[00:57:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:57:29] Speaker A: Like, and Jordan Peterson talks a lot about this where, like, he talks about just the clinical depression with everybody where, like.
Like, lifting yourself out of bed seems insurmountable. And, like, there's really, like, there are real cases where, like, because I have mental health issues with various family members and stuff like that. So I've witnessed it, and I'm like, I'm terrified of it because I can see some of that myself. And, like, so having that empathy, like, oh, my God, it might be that one thing, because what I heard, like, you know, like, that. How do we work the muscle of that pause? It's like, I remember, Rich, when I. I was going up to do my first keynote in 2017, and I thought I was gonna die, and, like, most people would rather die than do a keynote. And then just realizing, oh, my God, I was fine.
And then, so, like, it's like, those same physical things will happen a lot less nowadays, but, like, it's because you. You just practice.
And so it's having that practice that it's like. But like, being graceful with ourselves because it's. Sometimes you just got to put your el. Your elbow up if you can't get out of bed, and just. That's the one win, and then the wins. That's why I brought up James Clear. He calls it habit stacking. Right? You just. One thing after another. You get the reps in there that. That pause. Warren Buffett always said, you can always tell someone to go to hell tomorrow.
[00:58:53] Speaker B: Oh, I like that. The one I'll use is if it's a good idea, it'll be a good idea tomorrow.
[00:58:59] Speaker A: I should learn. I should. I don't need to call everybody and tell them that,
[00:59:04] Speaker B: you know, as we're talking about, like, the physical reaction, I think what we often find is we react physically before we can name it.
So if we could tee up our physicality, if we could be more in tune with it, we start to identify, oh, when I have tightness in my chest, that's nervousness.
When I start to feel heat crawl up my neck, oh, that's embarrassment.
And if we could really tap into the physicality of our emotion, it helps us to name it more quickly and then create the pause, because often we're not sitting there saying, oh, I'm embarrassed right now. Like, the physical reaction you have of embarrassment and where you feel it happens happens well before you can name it. So starting to look at how you're feeling, literally physically attaching to the name of an emotion and that emotion may have you acting in ways you may need to apologize later for.
And that's where we go pause. You're feeling that heat crawling up your neck. Pause. And you get to a point where you don't even need to name it. You just feel it. You know, it's time to pause.
[01:00:16] Speaker A: What I think is fascinating if we to add and build on top of all this. So you, you know, of whether it's 95 and like you, we both had different waves of explaining the automatons that are essentially the 95 of the people that are not awake. I just. How many times I send the Matrix, like where Neo and Morpheus are walking against all like the plumber or the attorney. And like, it's like, that's what I love is like finding the people that are free thinkers and sovereign. Like, that is like my. I don't know if I said the podcast with you and John, but in simulation Theory you start hearing a lot of the. The tech tech bros talking about simulation theory where like life is a video game.
[01:00:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:00:58] Speaker A: Non player characters versus player characters. So my wife and even my wife and I even say like, okay, you went to Target and there's a lot of NPCs out here. I
[01:01:05] Speaker B: was gonna say used NPC, didn't you?
[01:01:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Like, because like when I was on the call with you guys, like, like what I like to do and then I'll tie this into how do we actually build the muscle and actually understand the biology behind this. But like, the NPC is like, it just, it's not interesting to me now if I'm like being super transparent. Like, my buddy looked at me, he goes, you're building a business to give people the red pill because you want friends to hang out with. And I was like,
[01:01:34] Speaker B: yeah,
[01:01:35] Speaker A: like that about sums it up. And I was like, here's the red pill. Now we're fine. Here's the red pill. Now we're fine. Because like, if it's like, if I like what I, you know, you and I talked about sales and like growing up and, and all the social behavior. It's like, people are not interesting to me because you're just like, I can literally predict the next five moves because you like, I don't know if you see this, it's like, oh, like that person had a mom issue and then this is how it all shows up and that. And like,
[01:02:03] Speaker B: yeah,
[01:02:03] Speaker A: and, and like they're, they're patterns and if you extrapolate them forward, but then all of a sudden it's like, okay, like the reason I reached back out to you, I was on the podcast, I was like, you said self awareness. I'm like, this is gonna be a fun conversation. And so what, what's interesting about that 5% though, and like how I, how I became aware of this is. I think I mentioned Joe Dispenza becoming supernatural. Unbelievable book.
[01:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:30] Speaker A: Joe Dispenza said by the time we're 24, 95% of our behavior is locked in for life. Validating what you're saying. And he's app. Absolutely able to, he, he, he can use his machinery to scan people's energy, vibrations and the light radiation. So he's looking at like the seven chakras, he's looking at the energy centers, and he can actually track all of this stuff to see where it's crinkled energy. And then you go into like all of these. It's so interesting where like the woo woo, Eastern stuff is now medically proven or scientifically proven. Now it's like, okay, seven chakras, energy centers, trauma, sexual trauma, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse is like different centers to get stuck in. He can record it, but what he's saying is like by 24 years old, all of that, you know, operating system you're talking about is just. That's why most people are automatons is because of that.
Throw on incentive structures like the money and the board stuff, and I'm going to. We are literally in the freaking matrix.
And then you go, who are the 5% of the people who are even still listening to this podcast? Right? Because they're like, oh, that's interesting.
[01:03:37] Speaker B: And
[01:03:38] Speaker A: one thing is like a total. Just throw it all on the table is learning all this stuff intellectually is one thing. But then I started doing plant medicine like 15 years ago. And so for everybody listening, and it's the first time I've said it public publicly. I say it to my clients all the time and the members I did. I started doing psilocybin and doing the whole guided meditation, just like Michael Pollan's been talking about. Tim Ferriss has been talking about this for a decade. I mean,
[01:04:02] Speaker B: I haven't done it. Tell me about it.
[01:04:06] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
There are no words, which is the problem.
This is not Just for everybody's awareness, this is not a party situation. This is absolutely for therapy. It is.
It is in my mind, the most criminal thing ever, that we do not have this available to every single human being.
I want to give you a couple metaphors that are. That are pretty common.
So if.
If our neural network in our prefrontal cortex, or prefrontal cortex being the default mode network, which is our executive control over all of our ability to think in the future and all that stuff, it's the. It's the voice in our head that's noisy, the ego, all that stuff is in that. In that area.
We have all of these pathways that have been established by the time we're 24.
So you calm grooves. I mean, if you got like all those videos now on, online where you can see the synapses growing and it's like, it's like, good luck getting rid of that thing. Like, I was a reject as a kid. And like, and then like you said, it just perpetuates forward.
So the FMRI scans rich of people that have gone through this.
The couple analogies that I like are if you're. You're a skied or your skier at all,
[01:05:27] Speaker B: not much. I don't put slippery things on my feet much. I'm six foot three and it's a long way down.
[01:05:33] Speaker A: That's hilarious.
I think you'll still be able to track the analogy. So when there's a fresh powder day on the mountains, you have infinite amount of latitude of where you want to ski. But by the end of the day, all of those grooves are there.
[01:05:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And
[01:05:53] Speaker A: if you go outside the grooves, I mean, the chances of you falling and killing yourself are extremely high.
[01:05:57] Speaker B: Ryan, you can relate with me on tubing down a. Down a mountain with fresh powder.
[01:06:02] Speaker A: Okay, there you go. So just replace it now. You're flat to the ground,
[01:06:06] Speaker B: and then they're grooves. I'm with you.
[01:06:09] Speaker A: No, I'm just kidding. So, so that those grooves happen.
What happens through psilocybin is it's a fresh powder day and you get total blanket fresh
[01:06:22] Speaker B: powder.
[01:06:23] Speaker A: And you have choice and like, the ability to see all of this is just nothing short of a miracle. Like, as in, like, I mean, it took. I mean, there's a whole journey behind, like, every single session. Like, this is not a magic pill, like, at all. It's a, like, it's a self awareness red pill matrix moment. Well, like, and my. The guy that I have gone through wrote the integration handbook to this, and it's all about integration. Because it's like, what do I do with that information? Like, this is a dad issue, or this is a me issue. Or like, that takes work to then deal with it. But, like, and. And psilocybin is different than mdma. MDMA has a bunch of. And all this has been going on at John Hopkins for, like, 30 years. MDMA is the. Just. The street drug is Ecstasy. But that allows ptsd. Like, it's a lot for vets or people with sexual abuse as a child.
That allows them to actually remember the event without all of the horrible ingrained emotions. Because the ingrained emotions are part of those synapse connection, right? So it's like, so not only do you have that repeat behavior, but the same feelings, like you said, like, my I'm hot and I'm getting all this. That allows you to just deal with that. Where psilocybin is like this fresh powder day. It's like a download of information from consciousness, essentially. And then, like, it gets this progress of, like, okay, now I'm seeing what I couldn't see before of myself.
And, like, I mean, the most people that. I mean, the cancer research. I mean, like, there are people at the end of the life. So. John Michael Pollan has a docu series on Netflix about his book how to Change youe Mind.
It's fantastic. I mean, Michael Pollan has been pioneering this now for about nine years. He started with Tim Ferriss. Tim Ferriss has put a lot of funding behind it because of. He was. I mean, he almost killed himself. That's his main story.
And this is. You know, psychedelics have helped him a lot. But I think it's interesting, Rich. I mean, this is definitely illegal, but Johns Hopkins has been studying it for 30 years. There's been, you know, forward movement. Pharmaceutical industry doesn't like it because there's no way to make any money off of it.
Like, it's a couple sessions sometimes, and you're like, it's so fascinating. So it's. There are ways to understand this. And it's just like this.
It's the boost that can help us start.
And what they. The. The final thought is the FMRI scans, Rich.
They put two brains right next to each other, and it's a brain that meditated for 10,000 hours of this Buddhist monk and someone after four and a half hours of psilocybin, it looks the exact same. So it's essentially, do you want to go through this for 10,000 hours? Where I think meditation is a wonderful practice. It can get you there similar states of consciousness, or you could kind of hit the jump start button.
And it's not for everybody, man. Like, and I. That's why I've never really talked. It's becoming way more mainstream. I mean, I was doing this. I had to get my wife to like, listen to the books, do all this stuff because I'm like, I just wanted to change. That's all I wanted to do.
[01:09:39] Speaker B: What have you found outside of the psilocybin session? What changes have you found outside of that
[01:09:51] Speaker A: the observer observed? I mean, it's. It's a constant state. Like, I feel like I'm constantly looking through this video game. I don't even know how to describe it. Like, it's like, not. It's like, it's. It's just a perpetual. Like, I'm not me.
Like, what is. Ryan Tansom. I am in this meat suit. I'm in this, like, it's just this awareness of, like, here I am moving through time and space in this physical reality.
[01:10:17] Speaker B: Earlier, you said a phrase that I would absolutely associate with meditation, and I think it is an example of higher consciousness and self awareness. You said, you are not your thoughts.
And I think that is.
That is so true.
And I think when someone's first met with the idea of you are not your thoughts, it's a little befuddling.
And
[01:10:44] Speaker A: what
[01:10:44] Speaker B: I'm hearing. What I'm hearing from you is outside of the psilocybin sessions, you are able to relatively effortlessly practice I am not my thoughts, which frees you to have actually full conscious choice.
[01:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd say that's accurate. And like sitting here during an entire podcast interview and being fully present because I'm like, I'm having an internal dialogue while I'm talking to you. And like, it can be coherent. Like Carl Jung, where it's not total schizo, where I'm like, all of my childhood is coming. Like, it's like there's. It's all still there, right? Like, I have my past, my past has happened, but I am not my past. And I am not my. I am not my thoughts. I am not independence by design. Ryan.
Right? Like, this whole thing could blow the up. And it's like, all right, now what do I want to be? A carpenter? Like, I mean, I have total choice. And I think what I find fascinating, and I want to tee this up to you because I'm curious on what you've seen on this is like, I find unbelievable peace in complete freedom and choice and sovereignty and. Which is total optionality.
That I have found is unbelievably paralyzing to everybody.
Not everybody, a lot of people.
And what I have. There's a phrase that I. That helps me understand why. And I think it's part of the societal issues that we have right now is it was either Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin that said the. Who outsources their responsibility, outsources their freedom in the exact same degree.
And I think most people would prefer a problem that can't solve to a solution they don't like.
And all these kind of things are tied together and people would prefer the automaton, just algorithm that keep going. Because, like, when you go back and like, and I'm curious how this happened to you is like, okay, all this is my fault.
And then you have to, like, go down to the core code of our operating system and, like, if everything is like another algorithm stacked on top of it, you have to go back to the core and, like, rip that out. It's like Jenga. It's like you rip out the bottom. It's like, this is going to be mentally painful.
Insert something like psilocybin or like, it makes that process of, like, restructuring the operating system, restructuring all that, less painful than it could be otherwise. Not to say it's not potentially painful, but the pain is on the other side is. Is goodness. But I'm curious on, like, how you've seen that.
[01:13:23] Speaker B: Something you said that really resonated with me, and you didn't say this exactly, but it's a bit of what I heard is we're responsible for all of our life conditions.
And I would say to some degree, you can't control who you were born in, you can't control what country you were born in. So I get it. And
[01:13:43] Speaker A: health, things like disease, like whatever it might be,
[01:13:45] Speaker B: there are some environmental conditions out of our control. I get it. So barring some of those, every single situation I find myself in, I'm responsible for having gotten myself in it, whether it be good or bad.
And that belief actually allows me an opportunity to change my future, to change my destiny. Because as soon as I go, well, I'm not actually responsible for that. That's something externally. That's that person. That's an environmental pressure. That's this condition, and I didn't have an option. Now I'm a victim.
[01:14:24] Speaker A: Now
[01:14:24] Speaker B: I can't change because so long as that external
[01:14:28] Speaker A: something did, it's
[01:14:29] Speaker B: happening. I can't do anything about it. And. And I get to, yes, absolve myself of responsibility, but also I absolve myself of opportunity
[01:14:39] Speaker A: to
[01:14:40] Speaker B: take control of what happens next.
So we can't control everything that happens to us, but we can control what we do with it and what happens next and some of what comes to us. We're in more control of that having come to us than we think.
[01:14:57] Speaker A: And that pause is where the control resides.
[01:15:02] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[01:15:03] Speaker A: Which is so fascinating, isn't it? Because, like, how do I want to react?
[01:15:10] Speaker B: And it's literally a response versus reaction, the reaction
[01:15:17] Speaker A: we
[01:15:17] Speaker B: don't control.
If I take the, you know, the triangle rubber mallet and hit it on your knee, you're going to react, your knee is going to kick, and you might really, really think, I don't want to kick, I don't want to kick, and I'm gonna hit it. You're gonna kick again. There it is again.
So that's. Think of that as the reaction. This happened as an external thing, and the reaction is that knee kick that you don't control.
So outside of it being physically where you don't control it, we can control how we respond.
We can't control it so long as we don't create the pause. So that's
[01:15:56] Speaker A: like the big
[01:15:56] Speaker B: cause is where we have a moment of choice of the response where we may say, if you're somebody who's super argumentative, I would say, hey, that probably works for you, for your life. 80% of the time, you shouldn't change that because all of your life, you've built on being super argumentative. But, hey, now you're finding places where being argumentative doesn't serve you. So you're still going to have this compulsion to argue.
And now in that pause, we're going to question, is this a place where that belongs?
80% of the time, you're probably going to say yes, and it's probably the right decision for you. So I'm not saying in the moment of pause, do the opposite. I'm saying in the moment of pause, ask yourself, what is the appropriate response here? And if the appropriate Response here is 80% of the time, I need to argue, and here's where I need to argue, then argue.
But just the very fact that you pause and ask the question gives you an opportunity to not argue
[01:17:01] Speaker A: if
[01:17:01] Speaker B: that doesn't serve this situation.
[01:17:04] Speaker A: Empowerment.
[01:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:17:07] Speaker A: What do you do with all this information?
Like, how do you. How do you manage your life and how you organize things around you?
[01:17:15] Speaker B: Well, I think it's one of the gifts of coaching people is I get to talk about these concepts with clients that I have during Coaching sessions, I would say all day, every day, but I'm not working 8 to 10 hours a day doing coaching. But, you know, right Now I've got 27 coaching clients that vary between weekly to monthly.
And these are the things that we talk about so they stay very fresh for me. And I have very current examples and people I'm working with, and I'm very open, and I share my examples like I have on the podcast. So what do I do with all of it is I share that message in with my coaching clients, and it stays present and top of mind. And I'm. I'm always learning, and I'm always trying to learn myself better because I think I'm able to apply myself better for others when I do.
[01:18:06] Speaker A: How are you making choices about who you take on as clients and who you surround yourself with?
[01:18:14] Speaker B: Funny. You. You probably start some answers similarly. You haven't so far, but I bet you do. Like, hey, I had a podcast guest who I learned a
[01:18:22] Speaker A: lot from
[01:18:22] Speaker B: our podcast guests. I had a podcast guest who said, I don't work with jerks.
[01:18:28] Speaker A: No.
[01:18:29] Speaker B: And. And we said, okay, what's a jerk? And she said, somebody who makes everybody else's life more difficult.
[01:18:39] Speaker A: That's such a great definition.
[01:18:42] Speaker B: And. And. And I'm. I'm gonna. I'm gonna give it up here.
She didn't say it was copyrighted or I shouldn't, but we. She said, I have a jerk test. She said, but I can't tell you because then the jerks would all know the test.
And so since since it's not her who's on the podcast, I feel okay saying it, because her clientele probably isn't listening to this podcast.
So after we stopped recording, I said, so what's the jerk test?
And she said, well, in working with a client, before I fully take them on, I tell them, oh, hey, I forgot to tell you at some point, I don't work with jerks.
And she said, the people who are jerks are offended that that was said, and they identify themselves. The people who are not jerks laugh, and they think it's hilarious that I told them that.
So she said, the jerks know who they are. They know who they are. The people who make everybody else's life more difficult, they know who they are. If you walk into a room of people who are working in the same company and you say, everybody put your finger in the air and I want you to lower it and point at the person who's the biggest jerk in the room, I bet you'll find.
[01:19:58] Speaker A: Oh, my God, that is.
[01:20:00] Speaker B: I bet you'll find 80 to 90% of those fingers are going to point at the same person and that person might point at themselves.
So
[01:20:10] Speaker A: I would get anything to watch that in someone's company,
[01:20:13] Speaker B: they know who they are, was her point.
So when she said, I don't work with jerks, they self identified that she must be talking about them.
And they were like, well, why would you say that?
Well, well, what brings that up?
[01:20:29] Speaker A: I'm not sure.
[01:20:30] Speaker B: Well, did I do something?
The people who are not jerks were just like, that's hilarious.
[01:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:20:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
That's
[01:20:38] Speaker A: why I
[01:20:39] Speaker B: love you. That's so funny.
[01:20:40] Speaker A: You
[01:20:40] Speaker B: don't work with jerks.
So that's how I. That's
[01:20:44] Speaker A: a great test, man. I
[01:20:45] Speaker B: don't work with jerks, man. I don't work with people that I get a sense for. They make everybody else's life more difficult because they're going to make my life more difficult.
I don't work with people who I don't like working with.
You know, I got a life too. I want to like who I'm working with. I want to walk out of the French doors of my office and be energized for my family life.
[01:21:08] Speaker A: And
[01:21:08] Speaker B: if I don't feel like we're going to connect well, that I'm going to get more energy at the end of the conversation, then I don't want to work with that person.
[01:21:17] Speaker A: I love it. Rich, I. Have you heard of Dunbar's number?
[01:21:21] Speaker B: No. Tell
[01:21:22] Speaker A: me. It's a, it's a framework that I think about for how to manage my relationships. And this is like. And then we can. I know we're already over time, so I can get you out of here, but the, it, the, it's this, it's a fractal. So it's a. It. These, there's these circles that get bigger. So we can only manage 150 relationships in our life. It's. It's bounded by time.
There's nothing that we can do to essentially disagree with this.
You, you can create a newsletter or a podcast where other people that you're not interacting with every day is consuming you, but we have 168 hours a week.
And then if you extrapolate that per month, per year, you can only interact with so many people. I can only pin so many people at the top of my text message. So I actually have a spreadsheet and it's like, so it's like 5, 15, 30, 50, 100. And so it's like it ends up being 150. And then obviously there's like a sliding spectrum. But like my whole thought process is because I'm in the same boat as you, all I want to do is have fun.
[01:22:23] Speaker B: Like,
[01:22:24] Speaker A: all I want to do is have fun. And so my whole thought process, like, how do I build a life where I can work with the people I love?
Call it the 150s I got, my family's included. There's all these people that I have to work with. And then how much money can I make in that year working with those exact people on a mission and an idea that I think is meaningful enough that's above and beyond me, that impacts as many people over time as possible because then it's fun and
[01:22:54] Speaker B: like.
[01:22:54] Speaker A: And so like. But that Dunbar's number was important to me and I've had. It's kind of like to your jerk approach or your jerk thought process.
I tell this. I mean, it's part of my training program because like if we have. If someone's an owner and a CEO, who they choose as their executive team is a big deal. It's like the fact that we go on two dates and then we hire this person for 300 grand. Two. 300 grand, whatever that was. Like, that's a lot. It's a lot of money. And we're gonna spend a lot of time talking to this person. If you don't like them and then you don't trust them, what are we doing here? And so it's like this whole thought process. But my, the jerk comment was I have mentioned this to people and the people that are offended by it, right? I've had people.
[01:23:35] Speaker B: They're not on the list.
[01:23:38] Speaker A: Well, not only that and they, they were annoyed they were not on the list.
But like, but I'm like, well, like if you were my neighbor, you might be on the list because of like proximity.
And like it was so fascinating because that was a filter of self centeredness.
Because all I was saying is like, this is a physical reality that's a constraint being based on time. It's not Ryan's opinion. The guy in Dunbar created the thing.
[01:24:01] Speaker B: And you're like, I'm just willing to talk about the reality of it. And I mapped it out. And by the
[01:24:07] Speaker A: way, I'm not part of it. Rich.
Yeah, I guess not. I wasn't projecting on that, but apparently you self selected yourself out.
[01:24:15] Speaker B: Well, I think it's okay if you tell him. Actually. You were number 151.
You were close, but you, but you didn't make it.
[01:24:23] Speaker A: Exactly.
[01:24:24] Speaker B: But
[01:24:25] Speaker A: you're
[01:24:25] Speaker B: as close as you can get to not make my list.
[01:24:29] Speaker A: That's. That's fantastic. And like, what? And as it close like, this is what I enjoy about having you on. Like, you. You're not my neighbor. We don't have a business together. You're not my client. I'm not your client. But this is super fun. And the fact that you chose to spend some of your time with me, I had
[01:24:43] Speaker B: great.
[01:24:44] Speaker A: I had just an absolute blast, Rich. I mean, this has been an absolute joy for me.
Where can people find you, find more of you if they want to reach out. What's the best place?
[01:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah, LinkedIn works Rich Hoffman with two Fs and two Ns. H O F, F, M A N N. And my company's trusted leadership coaching. So I know long three words www.trustedleadershipcoaching.com.
and yeah, if you reach out, just hope you're not a jerk.
[01:25:14] Speaker A: I love it, Rich.
This was fun, man.
[01:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for having me.
