Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Independence by Design podcast where we discuss what it means to be a business owner and ways to get unstuck from the day to day so we can design a business that gives us a life of independence.
Jim, so excited.
I got your emails with the imperfect CEO. You got the imperfect board.
You are using the words that I'm constantly trying to bang the drum on, which is whether we know it or not, we own this company.
We have the functions of the CEO, CRO, CFO and coo, whether we know it or not. And there's all, there's this whole ownership game going on at the top that, the more clarity we have. I think about it like Jim calling it the, the ownership red pill. Like once you see the matrix, like, oh yeah, this is how it works. And so I'm just so excited to unpack from your experience and your, your career of like, why did you know? How did you get on this path? Obviously we can dive into your books.
Yeah. So you want to start with giving us just kind of a cliff note.
Well, where do you want to start?
[00:01:06] Speaker B: We'll get personal right off the bat.
When I was 21 years old, I was a million dollars in debt, paying 21 and a quarter percent interest.
And it didn't work. It wasn't sustainable.
So I learned some really painful and, you know, gut wrenching lessons about owning and operating a business very early.
And that that's been a fundamental kind of starting place for the journey that I've been on, which is there's got to be a better way to lead businesses and lead people. Like, I'll be very frank with you, Ryan.
As much as I'm a believer in let's generate wealth in our business, I'm a big believer in let's generate experiences where people can be the best version of themselves, work together with others and, and make bigger things happen in the world that they care about.
So they go home at night and feel like that was a day well spent and it adds up to a life well spent.
It's not just about the money. It's about what are we doing with all of our strength, our, our energy, our gifts and our time.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: I mean, creature man, I, I, I totally, excuse me. I totally get it. And like, you know, the way that I frame it up as we sync up our worldviews and then unpack, this is like the numbers are the scoreboard. Objectively, unless we're a non profit, a company exists to provide value to the customers and then they're generating more money for the value that they delivered. I mean Conscious Capitalism is one of my books back there. And like, you know, ESOPs and like the kind of, the whole spirit of that. I agree with you and I think the ownership structure, this is why I'm interested, is unpacking your experience with the board and how you learn this whole money game. Because I, I started my whole world too with the family business of like believing in people, but then realizing if I didn't understand the fundamental game that was going on, I couldn't actually take care of the, the people that I wanted to.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: And that's a sobering realization that leadership isn't about getting them to do what you want them to do.
Leadership is about bringing the clarity to what we collectively have the opportunity to do, inviting them to join us in it and releasing them if that's not their thing. Like the truth is, if, if we are not working at something that matters to us in the world, we are just putting in time, we're punching the clock and that's a long way to spend your career much better that we help the purpose to become more evident.
And the purpose. Can we agree, please, the purpose is not making money.
I like how Ken Blanchard talked about this.
Profit is the byproduct of a company well led.
It's not the objective.
So for all of our owner operators out there, let's. Yes, of course, if we don't have profit, we don't have oxygen to breathe and do what we need to do.
But what are we doing in our business that matters in the world that we can invite people to join us because they care about those things too.
And I've really enjoyed working with leadership teams as they grapple with this because then they start to realize, sure, we build houses, but when we really think about it for us in our community, we're trying to provide meaningful employment to people who want to stay in our community and not have to leave to go to the big city to get a job.
That's, that's what they decided. I'm thinking of a particular company. They decided that's their purpose and they just kept working at how do we grow this so that more and more of the friends and family, and then children of friends and family could work in this organization, do things that matter, enjoy it and, and be well enough rewarded that they can live a good life here rather than go to the city Depart.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
How did you land on these mental frameworks? Because I agree with you and I think what the journey that I've been on, I'M curious on how you got there where, you know, it's not just a platitude and you're not just a talking head that is saying that. You're saying it through fundamental realities that you've gathered to be true. So like, how did you get to the point because I, I violent agreement with you, but then it's like, how do we actually, how did you get there to believe that to be true?
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Well, I, I had a.
Quite an experience when I was, I think 19. I started working in a factory and I, I grew up on a farm, Ryan. So, you know, work is normal.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: What kind of farm? What were you doing?
[00:06:37] Speaker B: We had a mixed farm. We had, we milked goats, if you would believe it.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: At 100 goats that we milked, we fed 2000 hogs, we fed 100 head of cattle and we cropped about 700 acres of various crops.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: So you knew hard work and, and
[00:06:59] Speaker B: it was just normal. It didn't feel like, oh no, I have to work today. It was like, no, that's, that's what we do.
And it's good and it's, it's rewarding to get to the end of the day and turn around and say, oh, I, I planted that 95 acres of corn today. Yeah, that, that was a good day.
So I'm in the factory and honestly it was a quite an eye opening experience from, from day one.
The first morning I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed. Punch the clock, which was a new idea to me and say good morning to the people before me and behind me in line and they just scowl and tell me to F off.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Welcome, welcome, welcome to work.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: And, and I was surrounded by people who hated their jobs.
And I learned to do what I was doing quickly and started to do more and more, only to find that my work was being sabotaged because I was making other people look bad. So I had to just dial it back and work at the acceptable low pace.
It was so weird, Ryan. Like, and I was surrounded by people who didn't like their job and I'd say, well, get a different job. Oh, I can't do that. Oh no, I've got a mortgage. I can't leave this job. I don't know what else I would do. There's, you know, there's a hundred reasons why they can't do something different, but they hate what they're doing.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: What a miserable situation, right?
[00:08:41] Speaker B: I mean, it's so bad. And I started reading about it and learning that that was like 80% of the population lived that way.
And when I started to look around, I realized I actually know enough about what happens in the world that it doesn't have to be like this, and it's really about leadership.
So, yes, let's learn more about what would have to happen so that we could lead a business that offered people jobs they could enjoy, which means, one, we need to actually pay them.
It's not that they come because of the pay, Ryan, because if we make it so they like their job because they're being paid so much, somebody else can come around and offer a little bit more money, and they're gone. So that's not the real measure.
We need to try to make it so they're paid enough that. That's not the thing that would make them want to leave because they need more. No, they. They like it.
They're fine.
The real opportunity is to create a connection of meaning and relationship with people so that they feel like it's a day well spent rather than they just were. Another day at the grind.
And here's a exciting to me story.
Many years after those factory days, I'm leading a business, and one of the key people on our team got offered a job by one of our clients because she was so good at what she was doing for them, and they were prepared to pay her $100,000 more than what we were paying her.
And I, I awkwardly said, wow, good for you, because you are.
Yeah, you're that great. But we're. We're actually not in a position to match that.
And she just chuckled and she said, oh, I turned them down.
I. I don't want to leave. Why would I leave this job? I'm paid enough, and I love what I do every day.
What a gratifying feedback. That was it. Honestly, at that point, I'm feeling like, okay, I think we might be getting a little closer to making it real. People can, like, even love their job.
It's all about leadership.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: So I want to get to why it's all about leadership and, like, the couple different layers of leadership that some of your book titles have outlined. But what do you think are the. The. The ingredients to loving your job? And I'm curious on the connection to leadership versus, like, you know, Eckhart. Not Eckart.
Victor Frankel of like Man's Search for Meaning.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Like, he was in a concentration camp, so. But he still found meaning. So, like, how. Where is the. So my. I think my question is on the. In what. What responsibilities? On the individual versus the leader. And what. What Is the recipe for that comment, do you think?
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good, it's a good clarification.
As leaders, we could do everything right and people could just choose to be negative and hate the world and we can't fix that.
So there is, it's, it's, it's a two sided coin for sure.
The individual needs to be believe that there might be a job that they could find meaningful and rewarding enough that they would like work most days.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: Most days.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: And the leader needs to believe that that is a goal worth pursuing.
One because it's a blessing to the world. But let's also acknowledge that it's a blessing to our business. If you have 100 people working for you and only 10 of them like their job, 90 people show up and do the bare minimum.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: I know.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: And you might be making money enough to keep going.
But I promise you, if 100 people showed up and liked their job, believe that you value them.
Believe that when they bring great value to your business, you're actually going to acknowledge them, thank them and reward them, then they just bring more value. That's what happens. It's a human interchange. And so it's not just being magnanimous to say I'm going to lead a company so that people really like the job and it's just going to be good for them. Yes, it will be good for them, but trust me, it will be good for you too.
It's not, it's not just a one sided thing.
So the leader has to believe that it's worth working to make it so people can love their job.
And that means we gotta have to, have to help them understand how what they do contributes to something that matters in the world to them.
And that has to start right at the beginning, Ryan. When we choose who work for us, if we don't pick people who are actually kind of revved up about the purpose of our company, it's only going to be a job that they come and get paid for. It's not going to be the reason that they stay awake those days.
So hire well, pick people that align with purpose.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: Let me ask you on that because I agree with that. I'm just curious though. And on maybe a, a domino, that's before that, before that gets pushed over of what's the responsibility for the leader of knowing where they're going, the objective truth of the game and the, the plan that they have in order to make that possible. What has to be done on the leader side before you put that responsibility on the person or before the, before the weight gets put on the, the hiring.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: Yeah, there's so many, you're pushing so many really good buttons here.
There's a bit of a.
I don't know, I wouldn't call it a movement of a wish in the world that it's almost like we should have democratic organizations and that the, the purpose of the company should be what the people in the company want it to be. And I say that's nonsense. No, it's the responsibility of the owner leader to determine here is the purpose of this company.
And I will work to make sure that we accomplish our purpose.
And one of the ways that I'll do that is to be sure that we recruit people to join us in the work that care about that purpose. And we'll keep talking about that purpose.
Not only will be clear about the purpose, we'll have a plan of how we're going to fulfill it that we keep reinforcing in our communication to the people that are working with us.
So they aren't guessing.
You know, imagine a boat, a little rowboat, and there's six people. They all have paddles, but they're paddling in different directions. They're going where they think they're supposed to go, but the effort is all contradictory and they're getting nowhere.
Well, we're back to leadership again. We need a plan. We need to make sure that those plans are communicated well so that everyone can follow them. And they will follow them because they can see how their part contributes to the greater whole that is worth aiming for.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: I love it. And so let me do something for, for a second, June, because I want your reactions to this to give us some frame of reference as we continue to unpack in this, because I believe like the ownership group and the ownership structure, whether it's private equity, public company, ESAP or privately owned, has to determine how much cash flow and what the valuation needs to be in a specific timeline. Because that provides us the constraint to say this operating entity needs to generate what cash and what value in what period of time. Gross stock, dividend, stock, what's the value like that becomes the frame of reference in the timeline.
And the shareholders of the capital determine that first. So there's like this hierarchy of power, of deter, hierarchy of clarity to say, because it's not, I mean, powers.
Anyways, let me push that over aside. So the base case, you go shareholder, owner group, says this is the cash flow and the valuation timeline, then you have the board that's helping that accountability between the operations and then the shareholders, and then the CEO is like the captain of the team to say this income statement, which is this company has to get to the goals that the, the capital determined.
And then it's like, what are we going to do to accomplish that? And then it's like this identity crisis where I think strategic planning kind of fits right in there to say, okay, yes, we can't do strategic planning without the shareholder goals of cash flow and wealth and understanding the timeline. Because then we go now what's the constraint? And then how are we going to figure out who we're going to serve, why we're going to serve them and what we value inside those constraints in whatever industry or sector we're in. And then it becomes. So it's kind of like double clicking all the way down. Jim. And I just, I'm, I'm framing this up because you're, you know, you're board CEO and the different titles you've used. I think it's just helpful because my audience subscribes to this idea. So I'm just curious, like, you know, like any thoughts you have on that? Because I totally agree with you. I just want it's okay to get to the nuance because I think if we don't do that when we say board leader or owner leader, I think it becomes mushy.
And I think that's part of the confusion. And then, and I don't, I'm not saying that you're doing that on purpose. It's just right. With the, with the audience being like, this is specifically.
Because even if an owner operator owns the whole company and runs it and they're the C suite, those objectives still are by, should be bifurcated. Right.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: 100 and that, that was a good lesson that we ourselves in our business learned 31 years ago. We started this business myself with two partners and we quickly recognized, wow.
We get together and meet.
We have all of the authority in the company and all of the responsibility.
And the conversations would go in circles because there'd be this urgent thing that we needed to solve. But. Oh, but we can't really answer that without this higher level clarity figured out. So we better talk about this. Oh, but we just got this phone call that we need to deal with this and
[00:20:18] Speaker A: yeah, totally resonate.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: So. So we finally recognized ourselves.
Okay, we're going to have a board meeting.
It's the three of us are board members, we are the owners.
But let's get really clear about what the board is responsible to do.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: How did you figure that Out. Jim, did you have like an mba? Did you have someone helping you? Did you like? Because I wish, like, and maybe there was a challenge to learn that, but like, man, it took me a long time to figure that out. A lot of miserable experiences.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: I was in my early 30s and had a little bit of work experience, enough to know what boards are supposed to do. Because I, that was, that was kind of fundamental. As we began the company, we asked ourselves, what should we do? We thought we were going to be doing management consulting because both of them had been bankers and I've got an economics background.
But we recognized, wait, we have all been senior executives reporting to a board.
We have all been, been on boards, we've all chaired boards.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: And most of the frustration in our lives, our work lives, were related to boards not, not doing their job. Well, who is helping them? We better help them.
We quickly smelled the coffee and realized, oh, the need is huge. But people don't pay for what they need. They pay for what they want.
Uh, and when we started in 1995, they didn't even know. Most people didn't know what the word governance was.
Yeah, I thought it was about government, but then Enron and WorldCom happened and people started to realize, oh, there's more at stake here.
And, and maybe we should get some help.
Because at that, those early days, Ryan, board members, it's, it's almost like they were saying, if we hire a consultant to help us, isn't that admitting we don't know what we're doing? So we're disqualifying ourselves as a board.
And after Enron, it was, if, if we don't hire a consultant, we're gonna,
[00:22:40] Speaker A: we're gonna mitigate our risk here.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Yes, that's bad leadership, bad governance.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: So, but, but the beautiful thing that, that we were starting with there, Ryan, is that it's one thing to have ideas about how to help boards, it's another thing to be walking in the mud ourselves.
And, and that's what pushed us to. Okay, wait, let's get really clear. The board has to get, and here's, here's some gold for you.
The board has to answer the what and why questions and they must release to management the how questions.
So what is the purpose of our business?
What does success look like?
What are the values that really must undergird all of the function of this company?
Those are board level questions.
Not that management shouldn't be in the conversation, they should be. If it's not the same people, but Then, oh, how do we attract our. Our clients?
How do we price our products and services? How do we find people to do this work with us? Those are all management jobs. And boards shouldn't be talking about it. They shouldn't be telling the management how to do it, because that undermines management's role and responsibility.
So when we were just the three of us, we had to say, we're going to have a board meeting.
And that might only go for an hour and a half, and then we're going to have coffee and we're going to come back and we're going to have a management team meeting and put a different hat on, different hats. In fact, we even made it, so that would be a different person leading that meeting.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: So just for total clarity.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Just. Yep. And it was for us. No one in the world needed to know who was our board chair because it wasn't about status, it was about clarity.
[00:24:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: And they didn't need to know who was our CEO because it wasn't about status. It was about clarity.
The rest of the day would be the management team meeting as we figure out the how of so many things.
And the more. The more clarity. We also got to the point of realizing that someday we want someone else to be the CEO, not us.
We want to be the board.
So we have to make that distinction really clear.
And too many family businesses, I will say, from my experience, is that it's so fuzzy. The people with power exercise their power everywhere that they want, and they say, no, I know you want to do it that way, but I like this way better. So do it my way.
Well, you just told the CEO that you hired that you don't trust them. Actually, why would they stay working for you if they don't believe that you trust.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: I paid for your diapers, Jim. And you owe it to me to be here at 55 years old and work for this business. Or you can inheritance.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: Yes. Yes.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Tyrannical overlord in their 80s. Yeah. 100%.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And it's. It's difficult because there's all kinds of other strings attached to those relationships, too. Oh, my goodness.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Anyway, it's so like, everything you said I like, I mean, literally could be like words out of the. The whole system I've been working on. Because knowing that, and I'm curious on, you know, as you. What I'm hearing is like, because you guys had experience knowing that, what that looked like, you knew it was an objective truth.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: So that way you can say, yes, we're putting on different hats.
But that just is what it is, because these roles exist whether we admit it or not. And then you can then frame up your conversations. And I, Because I think what my experience was, Jim, and why I went down this whole rabbit hole for the last 15 years is because I, I experienced all that with my dad and I at the business.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: And like, and I just kept. What I, what I, what I kept bumping into is like, I believe that, like, people are fundamentally good.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Good. I agree.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: It's like, okay, like we're. I mean, yes, there's maybe 3% of people that are narcissistic psychopaths. Okay. But outside of that, I think there's an explanation of why people have bad behavior.
And it usually is a. Like, what did you say about the clar. I mean, it's, it. The level of.
It's not about the status, about the clarity. I mean, it gets all about the clarity. And the clarity comes from that. The objective duties for each of those roles. So I just love what you're saying because then I think once we have that, we can say, okay, now as a manager and your partner, as like a team member in the management, we're arguing about this, which is different than the shareholder argument.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: And it's not. Then it's not that blended together power of, like, I'm going to shame you into this because, you know, with your siblings, we've got this dynamic and it just trickles all the way into what you're talking about. I don't know. I just had, I just had to agree with you totally because of how important it is.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: The, the beautiful thing is that when we do it well, people actually like the leadership function.
Like, there's far too many people that are dreading their next board meeting. Like, too many management people. Oh, it's. They're just gonna, you know, it's like micromanagement, interrogation.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:23] Speaker B: No. What. What if it could truly be.
This group of people believes you're the best person for the job, and they're coming alongside to ask the harder questions, not because they don't believe in you, but because they want to do all that they can to make sure you succeed.
It's not about proving you're wrong. It's about making sure that you're on the right path. And we win because we all win when we do this well together.
I was in a board meeting.
You might not be surprised that I'm on a few boards because I care about that and I love, especially early stage companies. And so I was in a board meeting, and the chief financial officer said, well, we're leading a extraordinary company, and I am hoping that I can get extraordinary rewards for extraordinary results.
And my response is 100%, 1%. Hundred. I want you to get extraordinary rewards.
Because when we get extraordinary results, we're all winning.
Everybody in the system is getting the outcome that they're hoping for.
And why would we throttle you? Why would we limit. Well, there's. There's got to be some limits. But why would we make it so that we can win and you have to just survive?
[00:30:00] Speaker A: It's a balance. To your point. Like, there's a. There's a ratio of. As the pie grows, everyone's winning because the pie is growing. It's not a, you know, zero sum game.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely.
And so then it doesn't feel like we're competing with each other, right? No, we are. We are carefully and thoughtfully figuring out how we balance things so that all the players are getting a reasonable and maybe better outcome because they're all bringing the best that they can bring to. To allow for that outcome.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: What do you think the biggest set of circumstances are? Why this is so difficult?
[00:30:49] Speaker B: So both of my books really are going after the human factor.
I think that that is the. The big limitation.
And the reason that I called the imperfect CEO and then the imperfect board member is because we are all imperfect, Ryan. And.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Oh, come on.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Our Western world has put pressure like, I cannot tell you the number of CEOs that I've worked with over my 31 years in this business who feel this immense pressure to be perfect.
[00:31:32] Speaker A: Where does that come from?
[00:31:34] Speaker B: To have the right answer, to be able to stand with confidence and declare to the company, here's what we're doing and here's how we're going to win.
And when they get asked a question, this is what the answer is.
But inside, they all know they're not perfect.
And so there's this exhausting pretending happening, and it's happening in the C suite and it's happening in the boardroom. People get to the board and they think, oh, I got here because I'm so great.
Except they know they're not as great as that, and they pretend that they have the answers. Or, you know, somebody asks a hard question, and rather than saying, oh, that's a good point, I wonder what the answer is, they tend to smugly lean back and listen for someone else to give the answer. Given the impression that, I know, I know the answer, but, oh, we should probably let the CEO answer This.
It would be so much better if we would just admit our imperfection, which is not incompetence. It's.
All of us have strengths and weaknesses and a great board, a great management team.
They've come to learn and accept their own weaknesses and.
And understand each other around the table to the point that they invite and even rely on. Ryan, I need your strength to cover my weakness.
I'm never going to get good at this. That is not where I've got capacity.
But you are already good at it. If you would work more at it, you'll get even better. Whereas if I would work at it, it would distract me from the thing that I'm good at.
And I probably will never be even half as good as you, so I'm. I'm letting that go.
But see how imperfect that is.
If we.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: Why is this such a big we're. I. I'm tracking you because I am allergic to the entire situation that you're talking about, which is why I've never had a real job. Like, I just, like, I. I do not understand. And I'm curious from your.
Your experience, like, where. Why is it that. Why is everything you just said the case? Because, like, I'm incapable of pretending and I'm incapable of that whole situation. Like, the dog and pony show of being fake is just like, I. Like I can't handle it. Like, I would rather go to hell than deal with that fake pretend stuff. But, like, it's everywhere though, Jim. I mean, like, I see it in like, the. The consulting firms and like all the adv. Misery community and the co. You know, the consulting and, you know, that whole world. I mean, you now have like, sciences fact and determined versus, like the actual, like, scientific method of like, hey, we don't know what we're doing.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Right?
[00:34:41] Speaker A: You know, I mean, like, there's this whole weird, like, where. Where do you think this comes from? Has it always been this case? Or is it like.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: I think it's our. Our human insecurity that. That plays out. We.
We're afraid.
[00:34:56] Speaker A: Is it like this, like, back in the 80s and 90s, like, I mean, like, like, has it. Has it propagated more? Accelerated more? Or is it just my own different, unique lens of my. I'm just curious.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: It hasn't.
I don't think it's declined. I think the change is that more and more people are better tuned to notice authenticity or lack of authenticity.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: And are less willing to accept it. Like it was. It was more normalized in the 90s.
[00:35:31] Speaker A: Oh, interesting.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: Now, you said you can't accept it. You're just, you'd rather go to hell than be fake.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: I just, I can't do it.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: And, and Gen Z, like, I've got some Gen Z children, and they are so much more determined for their lives and the people that are around them to be authentic or they want to check out that, no, I'm not playing in that circle, which I think is a good thing. See, I'm, I'm from the baby boomer generation, and we would just smack dab
[00:36:07] Speaker A: in the middle of you guys, so
[00:36:09] Speaker B: we just suck it up. If you get a good job, just go in and, and live it, you know, put in your time. It'll pay off eventually. If you don't like it, put.
Grit your teeth.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: And today Gen Z says, if I don't like it, I'm, I'm done. I'm out. Like, they last three days in a job when they see that what it looked like it would be in the interview is not at all what it is in real life, they're gone. And I think that that's a good thing, Ryan. I think that that's forcing baby boom
[00:36:46] Speaker A: stuff that you're talking about, company owners
[00:36:48] Speaker B: like me to realize, no, you don't get to just say we're doing it this way because that's the way I like it. That's the way I'm familiar with.
So, yes, I don't care that you want to work from home three days a week, even though you're doing bookkeeping that could be from home almost all the time.
I like it better when I can see you in the building, so you better come in.
Well, what I'm noticing is one, the people who get the job don't like it and they leave.
The people who are really good at the job realize that they could have a much better job doing the same thing for some other company in the country.
It doesn't have to be in their town.
So the opportunity for the leaders is to realize the world has changed and stop hiring the best person you can find around and hire the best person in the country.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Huh?
[00:37:55] Speaker B: What an eye. What a thought.
But that means they have to change, and they have to make it so that the best person in the country can still feel valued and connected and that there's a Runway to grow and go up in the company, even if they live a thousand miles away.
And most people in their 50s and 60s haven't got experience building a company that way, and they don't want to do the work, it's kind of like they think, wait, I'm the boss, I shouldn't have to change.
You should have to change. I'm paying you.
And I get the logic. Except that more and more we're starting to realize that, well, that logic is going to make it so nobody wants to work for you.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of shifting ground and I think it's really interesting just to pull a couple of those threads that I've also came to the observation and conclusion of like the big whole work from home and like it. It's really complicated and nuanced. And why I say that is because I in the same breath can talk out of both sides of my mouth where, like, the amount of people disengaging from the workforce is very noticeable to me because a living wage is harder as the money printer continues to accelerate. So that whole thing is just a reality. That is the. I think it's the shifting sands underneath it. But that becomes, I think that accentuates the importance of what you're talking about where, like, the more this happens, the more it's going to be difficult to find happy people that are willing to. I mean, finding a place where people want to work is going to be a competitive edge. So I agree with you on that. So, like, I see it where, like, people are totally disengaging and not working. So we actually kind of want to build a culture, we want to build a team, we want to have a family for the right reasons. But then at the same time, the people that are working their butts off also want flexibility and don't want to go to. Because they've got, they've got the ability to determine and demand what they. Their terms and conditions. So it's kind of this really fluid situation that I think is solvable from your lens of how you're bringing it. So both of those problems can be, I think, shimmied together based on how you're approaching it.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: Yes, again, too many people in leadership positions, people with leadership power are being a bit lazy and, and saying, no, what that person is doing is wrong. And they have to be more like what I want or I'm not going to pay.
I had to uncomfortably notice that people in their 20s that we'd be hiring would come out of college, out of even a graduate program, and they'd never worked at a job in their life yet.
And this was for laughing.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: It's just such a problem.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: It's. It's pretty rampant and, and it's also almost like it wouldn't compute for me. Like, I had a job when I was 14.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: Yeah, milk and goats.
[00:41:16] Speaker B: Well, no, even before that. I. Anyways, that.
So the.
The idea that we have people in their 20s that don't yet know that you're actually supposed to start work at the beginning of the day, and it matters.
And I would be. I would be mad. I would be complaining. It's like, I have to train these adults like they're teenagers.
And I.
We have to just change our lens, Ryan, and say, yes, yes, you do have to do that.
But the beautiful thing about that is that if. If we would take responsibility for it, we would see it as an opportunity to create a level of connection and a culture that makes those people realize they have never been so well served in their life.
And yes, some of them are going to say, oh, I don't want to work in the morning ever.
Okay, we're so sorry. This is probably not going to work for you because everybody in this company has to begin work in the morning.
If that doesn't. That might not be true. But if it is true, help them find a different job in a different company.
But if it. If it is true and they can grow into it, they'll be fine. And if we hear what they are learning and help them with the learning and then recognize, like a discipline I encourage management to have is to notice the people that work for you and have three buckets.
If that person came to you this afternoon and said, I'm sorry, but I'm going to be leaving, would you react and go, that's a relief, because I was wondering how I would get them to leave without having to pay them a lot of money to go.
Or would you say, oh, darn, now I'm going to have to find a replacement?
Or would you go, oh, no, this is one of our best people?
And if. If we would identify all of the people in that third bucket, our best people, and actually sit down with them and say, I don't know if you know this or not, Ryan, but I consider you to be one of the best people in this company.
And I want us to be sure that we are moving forward in a way that makes you believe this is the best place to work.
What could we do to make it so you feel that way?
Almost every manager and owner that I have ever shared that with, they say, oh, they're going to demand that I triple their pay.
They're terrified to open the conversation because they're thinking they're going to be taken advantage of.
And the experience that I've seen is that the vast majority, like more than 90% of them, are shocked by what they hear in response. First, utter gratitude. It's like, really, you care? I had no idea. I had no idea that you thought I was that important to the company.
No one's ever told me that before.
So suddenly they're feeling different about their place in the world and this a good thing.
And then there's, so what could we do differently?
You know what?
I don't want to, you know, take advantage of this, but on Tuesdays, my wife has to go and do this thing at 3:00 every afternoon.
And if I could somehow be home for when our kids get home from school on Tuesday afternoons, our whole family would just work better.
And I'm not asking for the time off. I'm just saying, you know, could I start earlier on a Tuesday or stay longer on a Wednesday or something so that we can.
And the. And the manager says, I yeah, let's figure out how to do that, because we want this to be the best place that you can imagine ever working.
And that sounds like it's workable.
Now, again, you can't pay them 80% of what they'd get at any other job in the.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: It has to be fair wage.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: It has to be a fair wage. So this is not cheaping out, but this is. This is also not thinking that you're going to have to pay them 120% of anyone else. No, pay them fair.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: I have. I have the exact experience personally for the story you just told.
And it happened at a young age. And so maybe that's why I have the confidence to do what you just said by accident, because I'm now working with him again. Is his name is Paul? He's my. He was my CIO that helped me build out the IT services at my office equipment business. And he like. I mean, dude, like, I went through two people before finding him. Found him. And he just, like, changed my life with what he was building and how he was doing it. I remember sitting down with him because I was like, oh, my God, we got to give this guy a raise. I remember sitting down with my dad, talking about that, and sat down with Paul at a coffee shop. I was like, all right, dude. And he knew we were financially strapped at that time because we were going through whole turnaround. I was like, all right, dude, how much can I, like, bonus raise? Like, I'm trying to do stuff here. He's like, dude, my kids are like four and Six.
Like, I need flexibility in the morning and the evening. I'm not asking to not do my job, but, like, my wife's. She's in. She's a PA and like this. Our schedules are a nightmare. I like, maybe a little bit of extra time off and flexibility over here. I don't need the money. I was like, really? I like, I mean, to the exact T of the exact conversation.
[00:47:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: I was like, all right, dude. And like, him and I are, to this day, 15 years later, working again together at a different company.
And, like, it's just that level of trust that I got to like, you need your life to work. I need my life to work.
[00:47:41] Speaker B: We're both in this together, and this is so critical. Ryan, again, let's underscore the word leadership.
Leadership is about people.
It's not about stuff. Management is about stuff. Leadership is about people.
And the most important thing that we can do as leaders is to find good people and lead them well so that they feel good about themselves, ourselves. What you just described is so powerful because you helped him feel good. Paul, I think you said his name. Feel good about himself.
And that was so important that the relationship continues. All these years, you've probably heard the saying, nobody leaves a job. They leave a manager.
[00:48:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: That's because the relationship is not that good.
[00:48:36] Speaker A: Right?
[00:48:37] Speaker B: Nobody.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: And they follow, man. And they follow the leaders.
[00:48:39] Speaker B: Exactly. Opposite is, people don't get jobs if they can find the right people that they can follow.
Oh, so again, if we as leaders would recognize our. The opportunity.
Yes, I am 100% with you for. Let's understand these financial realities and goals in our company.
Let's be very intentional about communicating and building plans that will allow these to be accomplished.
And let's realize they will only be accomplished when good people do their job well.
And that means they have to believe that we think that they're good people, that we thank them for doing their job well, and we appropriately reward them.
They will have a relationship that makes them want to continue to working well with us, and everything is better because of it.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: Where in your, like, back agreement. Total agreement. The back to, like, this pretending get. You know, you know, rel. You know, unveiling the whole wizard of Oz. Like, I don't know if it's maybe because, like I said, I've never submitted a PTO request in my entire life. Like, I have no idea what that's like. I'm just been an entrepreneur and have been around people like that my whole life. So, like, it's around people that have the ability to know that they're messed up and they, like, had an allergic reaction to the system and, like, became an entrepreneur. So, like, you know, like, when you talked about you have, at some point don't want to be the CEO, there's this transition period of, like, keeping the company, but want to be. To elevate to the board, but then realizing, okay, like here, there's a question here that I'm trying to, trying to isolate here is like, the ability to be imperfect. Like you're saying. I, I tend to see that a lot of the people that either I attract or that I'm. I'm around are okay being like, I totally don't know what I'm doing.
And so, because it's like, hey, we took a leap of faith and I started this thing and my dad barely graduated high school. I mean, like, so it's. I got a D in accounting, and like, that just, just is what it is. And so I'm just used to that. But then as you look at more the leadership style, where the Reward system is 4.2 out of 4, you get all your MBA, you know, you get. It's like this ladder of very specific success and job descriptions and all that stuff, which I can see incentivizes that perfection.
So, like, any words of thought or wisdom or experience that you've seen of, like, maybe people that are okay being imperfect, and then you have like, this next generation of people that are the leaders who aren't the original founder, entrepreneur type, who are going to actually take it to the next level. And how do you balance these dynamics? And last comment is like, my, my friend, he said, experience is what we get when we don't get what we want.
[00:51:34] Speaker B: Okay, yeah.
[00:51:34] Speaker A: Isn't that fascinating? And like, and a lot of entrepreneurs get that real fast. And so, like, you know, if I'm hiring you as the CEO and I'm the founder, I can't expect you to be the same as me, but I still want to install this, like, imperfection, the authenticity that you're talking about. So, like, I don't know. I don't know if there's one specific question here, but I'm kind of painting a picture of what I'm experiencing a lot. Any thoughts about that dynamic?
[00:51:57] Speaker B: So there's, There's a few different angles to come at this. One is the why. Why are we sometimes driven toward this ourselves to be. To project perfection?
I think at the core, it's, it is insecurity. It. It's a sense that, wow, they're paying me. I'm thinking of a particular CEO client. They're paying me $420,000 a year to do my job.
And inside, I realize that is a whack more money than I ever thought I'd get paid.
I'm not sure I'm worth that much, but I can't let them know that because I don't want to take less pay.
Then. Then they're saying, what do I need to say and do and look like so that I will keep my pay, maybe even get a raise, because that makes me feel better.
[00:53:03] Speaker A: Yeah, the insecurity. And the person was making $420,000, which is way more than they ever thought they were gonna get.
[00:53:08] Speaker B: Right? So then. Then they feel like they've got to kind of make it look like they're. They really do have it together.
How do we change it? So come from the other angle. How do we change that?
The very best thing, someone, the whole board, or at least the chair of the board, would say to the CEO, hey, we are so excited to be working with you, and we see great promise and great progress.
So just keep it up and let us know what we can do to help you keep growing.
And by the way, let's underscore growing, meaning you are not the leader that you will be five years from now.
Five years from now, you will have learned a bunch of things, but you'll only learn them if you actually admit you don't know those things now.
And my promise to you is, I'm not going to penalize you for not knowing things as long as you're committed to learning them.
Let's be on this journey together.
We're doing well.
Let's keep doing well.
Likewise, when he or she is leading the executive team, the most powerful thing we can do as leaders is to demonstrate vulnerability.
And the old model was vulnerability is a sign of weakness.
The new reality is vulnerability takes amazing courage for the CEO to say, hey, team, I'm going to call a kind of a.
A timeout today.
I need to actually apologize because we have been going hard on a plan of how we compensate all of our people.
And it's the plan that I believe in, or I used to, because it's the plan that I built 15 years ago in a. In a role that I had at a different company.
But I'm realizing the world has changed. And unintentionally, I think our compensation plan is making people compete with each other in our own business rather than work together to make the best things Happen.
That's all on me. I am so sorry.
So maybe we could take a bit of time and talk about how we're seeing some of those negative impacts happen and what might be some ideas of how we could do it differently.
Well, here's what probably is happening in that C Suite.
At least half the people are thinking, holy co, he is admitting a mistake. I've never seen him admit a mistake before.
That's amazing.
And by the way, I knew it was a mistake. All this time I've been watching this compensation system undermine our best people and crying that I couldn't change it because the CEO invented it.
You see, now we've just given people on the C suite permission to challenge the CEO. Not because they think they're smarter, but because he knows he doesn't have all the answers.
And to realize that if he's becoming open to admitting his mistakes, maybe he'll be more open to my mistakes. Yeah.
[00:56:51] Speaker A: To forgiving me or giving me grace or whatever. And it's so interesting, Jim, because I, I, I want to live in the world that you're talking about. And I think everybody does, which is why you're tapping into the human, human side of this. And like, let me, let me come at it for another angle too. As you and I kind of triangulate. This truth is what I find to be true. That is really destructive. That like, okay, so like, let me, let me take this from like a counterpoint of like, let's say someone is listening to this and like, well, that terrifies me, Jim. So here's how I would counterpoint that myself. It's like, okay, understood, that's nerve wracking. Or you know, you need the 400 grand. You like you, if you don't, if you lose these people, you might not maintain the clients, you run out of cash, whatever. The, you know, the, the whole cascading events of like all of a sudden I'm bankrupt if I, if I'm vulnerable.
What I have experienced in my career is that if I, or if I watched leaders or if I pretended, am I still there? I just want to make sure.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:57:57] Speaker A: The. If I pretended or if I watched people that pretend. And I'll take it from if I watched a leader pretend, the amount of hypocrisy that is abundantly obvious to me leads me to resentment. And my least favorite emotion that I could ever feel is resentment because it'll swallow me alive. Like, like me. Like I have to do everything in my God given ability every day to I've learned that through my own journey that dealing with the hard thing at the exact moment and telling the truth is way less miserable than at some point they're either if it's me where I'm watching the leader and the resentment bubbles and bubbles. Like Jim just says this, he does that. And like it discredits you. And then like, then I, and it just, it just, it just bubbles and. Or it's me who's pretending and then I feel misaligned.
[00:58:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:59] Speaker A: And then that, then I feel fake. Like it's almost like both of those options for me are so unintelligible like internally that I'm just like, I can't deal with those emotions at all. And like so then therefore it's like, okay, just out of pure self survival. Let's just tell the truth about whether I know what I'm doing or not. Because otherwise it's resentment or I feel fake. And neither of those are worth the effort.
[00:59:25] Speaker B: I am so glad that that is the way that unfolds in your life because that's healthier.
Can we acknowledge that there are a whole lot of people in the world that felt discomfort, but to survive they have just created. Masked it up mask. Yes. It's like suck it up, pretend it's fine because I have to pay the mortgage. I can't be true to myself and risk losing this job.
So I'll pretend that I agree with what the CEO is saying.
I worked with a company where the, the head office flew in a person from a different state to be the manager to turn this around. And he was a.
[01:00:22] Speaker A: Whatever like back in the day. Like, yeah.
[01:00:26] Speaker B: And, and it was a chemical company.
And he said, okay, let's, let's dump that, let's unload that bulk tank into this big tank over here. And the people in the room looked at him and go like this. And they knew, they knew that if they did that it would ruin everything in that.
[01:00:52] Speaker A: And they just watched it happen.
[01:00:54] Speaker B: Whatever. It was like 800,000gallon tank. It like it. That mistake cost over a million dollars and nobody said anything.
That is the kind of disastrous stuff that's happening in companies every day. Ryan. It's because we have used power to make people do what they think we want them to do even when it means they're doing the wrong thing and they know it's wrong.
What a terrible system.
[01:01:33] Speaker A: Right? I agree with you.
[01:01:34] Speaker B: Whereas he could have said, huh, I, I know I'm in charge, but I don't really know this stuff like you guys do. Where should we put that?
And they would have answered.
So anyways, I, I, I sorry about that.
[01:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah, keep going.
[01:01:55] Speaker B: I'm glad you're unwilling to let that misalignment happen in your own life. And my encouragement for all of our listeners is be more like that and make it easier for people to respond that way rather than make them respond in the pretending way.
[01:02:16] Speaker A: Right.
[01:02:17] Speaker B: Make it safe for people to ask good questions, to challenge your answers.
Make it safe for them to admit mistakes they made.
If you fire the person that makes one admits one mistake, you have to understand, no one will admit mistakes anymore.
[01:02:37] Speaker A: No, I know.
[01:02:38] Speaker B: It's too dangerous.
So, no, as leaders, we have to create safety.
[01:02:44] Speaker A: Well, isn't that what's been going on with Boeing and all that? Like, I mean, it's like, you know, we're in the business of financial engineering and stock buybacks instead of building planes.
[01:02:54] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:02:54] Speaker A: I mean, like, I saw a stat, it was like 80. I mean, I totally, like, I believe it was like such a disproportional percentage of Boeing's employees won't fly on their own planes.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: I mean, it's heartbreaking to me. One of my heroes in, in business life is Alan Mulally, who turned Ford around. Well, he was a division leader at Boeing. Before that, he's a aircraft engineer. He, he loved the company and gave his heart to the company.
The idea that this man who made the cultural transformation to turn Ford around is watching the opposite transformation happen at Boeing must be just making him weep.
It's terrible.
[01:03:46] Speaker A: And I think that that right there is at the heart of Jim, like, so whatever episode where I'm on here, 515 or whatever the heck it is, like, so many of the earlier couple hundred episodes were about people that grew and sold their companies and all the misalignment because, like, what I, when the shareholders are making the goal of what do we expect from cash flow and value and over what period of time, which for an owner, operators, decades, and private equity, you got to give the money back to the pension fund. Like, the general partners are not the boss. The commercial banker's not the boss. The investors are not the boss. The board is not the boss. You know, you know, PwC is not the boss. Everyone's just sucking value off of that vehicle that's got to go until the whole thing shambles. And it's so effed up, it's like, well, no wonder. Like, like at the root level of the game, there's no way for this to succeed because it's this Vampire of value sucking until there's a carcass left. And not to say that a company can't be good enough to survive that, you know, that perpetual erosion. But like the time horizon forces that onto the like so the shareholders goals, like when stock buybacks become bigger, then like when it becomes the mathematical, like we have to do this versus concentrating on, hey, by the way, don't ship that plane because the screw is going to be loose and we might actually fall out of the sky. Like yeah, someone needs to speak up like you're saying. And like, yeah, it's just like this machine of self censorship to your point. And it's like, it's just, it is heartbreaking for me. So my point about the, the longer podcast like in the earlier ones is like when a founder would sell to private equity and they got this big dollar amount, you know, subject to all the deal structures that can totally screw them over. But let's assume it's a fair dollar amount.
It's this misalignment with the people then.
And then like they people will stay there and go, oh my God, like I'm watching. To your point about going to Ford and watching it happen.
It's not about the money. When those good leaders are looking at that going, that's my family that's getting destroyed.
[01:06:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:04] Speaker A: And it's just heartbreaking from an emotional, humanistic. Humanistic level.
[01:06:09] Speaker B: Yeah, agreed.
And it's, it's just bad leadership, like let's call it what it is, it's selfishness.
And, and great leadership is selfless.
That's actually a requirement for great leadership. It doesn't mean that you won't be rewarded if you do it well.
Profit is the byproduct of a company well led.
So sure, you'll be rewarded, but if you're doing it so you get rewarded and others don't, that's selfish. And you will disenfranchise the people and it will not remain rewarding because they're not going to give their best. They're feeling like you're taking advantage of them. Right.
[01:06:55] Speaker A: And the way like the reason, because I was never the finance guy and I like, I landed into like understanding the people and the numbers at the same time because the, the, the analogies and metaphors I keep bringing up, like when I look at a set of financials from the board level, it's like okay, income statement, balance sheet, cash flow statement, all mathematically tied together and I look at the bottom of the cash flow statement, it says cash like in the checking account. And then I look at the five year projection to say, because like, it's nothing more complicated than. All right, Jim, like, let's say you and I are partners at this company. Let's say it's doing 20 million. We got whatever the, the margins in the SGA are all the way down. But then the cash is after working capital, debt and taxes.
And then we have, let's say we got 500 grand and you and I own the company. It's your and I's obligation to figure out what are we going to do with that 500 grand.
And the only way that you and I would have any context is like, what's our goal?
So, and then when we take that 500 grand, it's either in the form of distributions for you and me and we're sacrificing potential growth, or maybe we already are hitting our growth goals and that's above and beyond working capital. But there's no context unless we have that plan. But then we literally, you and I as the shareholders going to say, well, what are we going to do with that?
And are we going to be okay? Like, and it's so it's nothing more complicated than we have extra money and we're trying to figure out what to do with it. And like, and so I ended up pulling this rabbit or this thread for 12 years going, oh my God, it's all down to the people at the board shareholder level who are pretending that things like, like in back to the whole like world, you know, the acceleration of mergers and acquisitions since 2000, you know, 2010-12, it's like, oh my God, like this rampant. We're pretending that we're not just gonna flip this thing to private or to the pension fund because like the teachers need the freaking money.
And so, and I don't begrudge venture capital or PPE or any of that. Just like there's a necessary. But if we look at the pie chart, there's a necessary part where it's like, I think it's Delta's pension fund went from like 11 private equity exposure to 38.
That's when, when you have excess growth that's cancerous. And so all my, all my point is like, I am total agreement with you on everything we've talked about. But where I kind of, I landed after this last decade is understanding that whoever sets those rules with the money is the ultimate decision maker. And then that shareholder group hires then the board and then the CEO. And so like, because like, you know, all these clients that I've had over the years, like, they think the private equity firms. I'm like, they don't have. They're not the boss. They raised the money on some freaking BS promise, and they can be fired if they don't get the return for in the pension. I mean, so I just kind of followed all the way through and it's like, oh, it's.
My point is, it's not all about this, but what it allowed me to do is see the whole game to then be able to isolate the leadership qualities. And I. And I just. I.
I don't know. Thank you. Thank you for letting me do my little, like, monologue there. I just, like, I just find it so fascinating because I have found myself or other people I love where they're in this game. And I'm like, dude, if you just look like four layers up, this is never changing.
And it's, like, so obvious to me. But then people are just selling their whole life pretending it's going to get better. And it's like, this is never getting better. Look at the four layers above.
[01:10:19] Speaker B: Let me. Let me tell you a story. I was on a board of a tech company, and a big injection of capital came from a family office.
So the father of this family joined this board.
We have a billionaire sitting at the table, and I was chairing the board.
And it became obvious pretty quickly that this billionaire had lived a lot of his life getting whatever he said.
And I had to have this very uncomfortable conversation in the boardroom saying, let's just be a little bit more clear about what our role at this table is.
We are actually all representing the entire ownership of this company.
We have one vote that is going to be exercised in the best interest of the entire company.
So I'll call him Sam, our billionaire Sam.
Of course, you can express what you wish would be the outcome, but even when you vote, you're not voting for you.
You're voting for the ownership all together.
And he had this defensive response. You know, Well, I own 30% of the company. I said, yes, but that's you as an investor. That's not you as a board member.
It might be why you're invited to be on the board. It was a condition of his investment.
But it's not like you have some superpower vote because of 30%. In fact, 30% isn't majority.
So, no, you have one vote around the table of six people.
Our aim is to try to make decisions as close to unanimous as we can, because we've all talked this through and Understood it thoroughly.
We're doing what's best for the company.
And if. If sometimes it doesn't go the way any one of us want, we then are still obligated to leave the room and support what the decision of the board was, because that is the board decision, and we are a part of the board.
I didn't have a good.
[01:13:04] Speaker A: You say, how'd that go?
[01:13:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:13:08] Speaker A: So bring it. Like, how do you personally deal with that? Like. Like, for me, I get a little bit of satisfaction with picking on the bullies. I don't know. It's just something maybe about my childhood that I need to unpack a little bit further. But, like, I'm just curious, like, personally, like, how do you.
As you bring all of your past to that situation, does that.
What gives you the courage to do that? What gives you. Like, how do you process that for people who might not be used to that situation?
[01:13:35] Speaker B: So a big piece of it is coming back to understanding where's. Where's my own insecurity. And I have to keep reminding myself, I don't need any of this. I don't need to be the chair of this board. I don't need to be on this board.
If everyone looks at me and goes, what are. What craziness are you thinking of? I'm not going to fight and say, no. These. These are the principles of how boards work. If they all vote me off the board, I'm done. I'm gone. And honestly, I would just feel released. It wouldn't make me feel like, this is unfair. I'm going to fight this.
I don't need it.
And I have come to acknowledge that apparently I'm not normal because I just don't need things like a lot of people need things. Apparently. I don't need the status of being on a certain board or a role.
I just want to keep serving.
[01:14:38] Speaker A: And I.
I have a religious background.
[01:14:41] Speaker B: Very much.
[01:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I was. So I was gonna ask is, like, I.
Where this goes to me? Jim is I.
It's almost becomes like a spiritual endeavor for me because, like, telling the truth and saying what's right, it's kind of just what it's all about. And, like, it's like, all right, well, it's. The definition of faith is doing something that's right when you're not sure what's going to happen.
[01:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:15:08] Speaker A: And it might not be obvious that I was right right away.
[01:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah.
And at the same time, I've really had to discipline myself to recognize. Am I saying this because it's true or am I saying this because I want to get it off my chest?
[01:15:29] Speaker A: Really good point. Yeah.
[01:15:31] Speaker B: Am I saying it for the benefit of others, the company, or am I saying it for my benefit? Because if I am now I'm being selfish and it's not actually.
[01:15:42] Speaker A: Oh, being human's tricky, isn't it? It's like, it's like also too. Or I've had, you know, I've, I've had those questions and I probably don't ask that myself as much as I should, but also like there's this.
I can't remember if it was a philosopher or whoever. I mean, so like the whole virtual signaling, right? It's like, okay, like, am I saying, am I like, it's Alan Watts. Like all of a sudden we get addicted to having no ego. So we're like signaling to the world that we've got no ego. And by doing that, it's actually self reinforcing the ego. And you're just like, ah, I can't get away from it.
[01:16:20] Speaker B: It's like, right.
[01:16:21] Speaker A: So just like trying to like center ourselves every day, it's just, it's. It's tricky.
[01:16:27] Speaker B: Agreed.
But it's worthy.
[01:16:31] Speaker A: Agreed. What's your, what's your hope for the ripple effect that you're making with these books and the mission that you're on?
[01:16:41] Speaker B: I'm daring to believe that the Imperfect leader movement has begun and that more and more leaders will grapple with the challenge and opportunity to be more authentic and lead in ways that allow for the people that are in their business, under their charge to be the best version of themselves.
The number of people, back to that factory story from when I was late teens.
I was shocked by how many people would tell me that they spent the whole weekend drunk or stoned.
And it's like they, they just didn't like their lives so they were numbing themselves to it.
And the idea that they've got a lifetime of doing that is, Is terrifying.
What if, what if 10 people working in a company led by a imperfect leader started to go home and have a little bit of self.
Whatever. What's the word? Like, they just felt better about themselves.
[01:18:17] Speaker A: Appreciation and gratitude. Yeah.
[01:18:21] Speaker B: They go home and then they don't kick the dog and they don't shout at their wife and they actually take a bit of time to read the book with their six year old child and, and then they have a good sleep and they come to work the next day with energy and they do well.
And there's this cycle of everything in the world gets better.
If leaders of companies would make it so that the people that work there like their job, the whole world gets better.
And my, my audacious aim is that a hundred thousand leaders would be that kind of a leader and it would triple or trickle down and affect millions of people.
[01:19:14] Speaker A: Well, hopefully I'm doing my little part and giving you a little bit of a platform here.
[01:19:18] Speaker B: I'm thankful for it, Ryan, and very aligned. It's so good to talk with you because I know that, that you see the same picture and that you're working towards the same end. So I don't feel like I'm, you know, a voice in the wilderness. I feel like I'm a person that's getting more and more friends singing the same song.
[01:19:36] Speaker A: Preach, brother.
[01:19:37] Speaker B: Right?
[01:19:38] Speaker A: So yay, Preach. I love it so much.
Best place to find you and your books. We'll put the links in the show notes. What's the place you want to direct people?
[01:19:48] Speaker B: Yeah, so we're, we're very active on LinkedIn. So I'm author Jim Brown. You can find me on LinkedIn. Message me there.
[01:19:57] Speaker A: You're the only one, right? The only Jim Brown out there.
[01:20:00] Speaker B: That's, that's part of the problem.
[01:20:02] Speaker A: Right, Exactly.
[01:20:04] Speaker B: Our, our company website is orghealthteam.com and we got lots of resources that are available. Love to hear from people that way.
[01:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll leave the.
[01:20:18] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. The book is available at all bookstores online. Amazon in Canada. Indigo, Barnes and Noble.
Yes.
[01:20:29] Speaker A: So it's been so fun for me to spend the time with you. This is a fun conversation. I really appreciated it.
[01:20:35] Speaker B: Likewise.
Hey, I, I really hope that, that your listeners will be thinking of, you know, one or two ideas that really registered for them because that's all it takes from listening to a good show like this to go and just do something a little different and then we start to get a compounding effect in our, our business and our lives.
So thanks for making over 500 deposits from all of your shows.
[01:21:05] Speaker A: That was fun, Jim. I really enjoyed it.
[01:21:15] Speaker B: Sam.
